BD-RE DL with mds destroys layer1 sectors permanently after first burn?

[hamletiii]

Similar to this post, but I can't post in that anymore:

http://forum.imgburn.com/index.php?showtopic=11326

 

I'm using Scenarist BD to author my disc, therefore I would like to preserve the layer break set in my project.

The mds is created by imgburn using the Layer1LSNInfo.txt info.

My problem is that for BD-RE DLs, I can burn the mds+img files successfully on a brand new disc. But when I tried to burn the disc for the second time, the sectors on layer 1 are all bad! If I just burn the BD-RE DLs the "normal way" by using iso/img or BDMV folder, the discs are fine, I can rewrite them. So far I have destroyed two BD-RE DLs this way...

 

I 16:20:38 ImgBurn Version 2.5.5.0 started!

I 16:20:38 Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate Edition (6.1, Build 7600)

I 16:20:38 Total Physical Memory: 2,095,600 KB - Available: 551,968 KB

W 16:20:38 Duplex Secure's SPTD driver can have a detrimental effect on drive performance.

I 16:20:38 Initialising SPTI...

I 16:20:38 Searching for SCSI / ATAPI devices...

I 16:20:38 -> Drive 1 - Info: PIONEER BD-RW BDR-206 1.04 (I:) (ATA)

I 16:20:38 -> Drive 2 - Info: FAJ LAJ01ENC9EBG 3.5Z (W:) (SCSI)

I 16:20:38 -> Drive 3 - Info: FAJ LAJ01ENC9EBG 3.5Z (U:) (SCSI)

I 16:20:38 -> Drive 4 - Info: FAJ LAJ01ENC9EBG 3.5Z (V:) (SCSI)

I 16:20:38 -> Drive 5 - Info: USB EasySuite 1.30 (H:) (USB)

I 16:20:38 Found 1 CD-RW, 3 BD-ROM/HD DVD-ROMs and 1 BD-RE!

I 16:20:54 Operation Started!

I 16:20:54 Device: [3:0:0] PIONEER BD-RW BDR-206 1.04 (I:) (ATA)

I 16:20:54 Media Type: BD-RE (Disc ID: TDKBLD-Wfa-000) (Speeds: 2x)

I 16:20:54 Quick Erase: No

I 16:20:54 Format Properly: Yes

I 16:20:54 Format Size: Preferred

I 16:20:54 Format With Full Certification: Yes

I 16:20:54 Format Without Spare Areas: Yes

I 16:20:54 Erasing Disc...

W 16:20:54 FormatDisc(FT: 0x31, FST: 0x02) Not Supported!

W 16:20:54 FormatDisc(FT: 0x31, FST: 0x03) Not Supported!

I 16:21:45 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:00:51

I 16:21:45 Operation Started!

I 16:21:45 Device: [3:0:0] PIONEER BD-RW BDR-206 1.04 (I:) (ATA)

I 16:21:46 Media Type: BD-RE (Disc ID: TDKBLD-Wfa-000) (Speeds: 2x)

I 16:21:46 Media Sectors: 24,438,784

I 16:21:46 BD-RE FastWrite: No

I 16:21:46 Zeroing Sectors...

I 17:55:37 Synchronising Cache...

I 17:55:37 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 01:33:51 - Total Duration: 01:34:43

I 17:55:37 Average Write Rate: 8,680 KB/s (1.9x)

I 17:56:10 Operation Started!

I 17:56:10 Source File: N:\KAXA_2000_1.ISO

I 17:56:10 Source File Sectors: 18,929,408 (MODE1/2048)

I 17:56:10 Source File Size: 38,767,427,584 bytes

I 17:56:10 Source File Volume Identifier: KAXA_2000_1

I 17:56:10 Source File Volume Set Identifier: 3E36B3D20120D673

I 17:56:10 Source File Application Identifier: ImgBurn v2.5.4.0

I 17:56:10 Source File Implementation Identifier: ImgBurn

I 17:56:10 Source File File System(s): UDF (2.50)

I 17:56:10 Destination Device: [3:0:0] PIONEER BD-RW BDR-206 1.04 (I:) (ATA)

I 17:56:10 Destination Media Type: BD-RE (Disc ID: TDKBLD-Wfa-000) (Speeds: 2x)

I 17:56:10 Destination Media Sectors: 24,438,784

I 17:56:10 Write Mode: BD

I 17:56:10 Write Type: DAO

I 17:56:10 Write Speed: 2x

I 17:56:10 BD-RE FastWrite: No

I 17:56:10 Link Size: Auto

I 17:56:10 Lock Volume: Yes

I 17:56:10 Test Mode: No

I 17:56:10 OPC: No

I 17:56:10 BURN-Proof: Enabled

I 17:56:10 Write Speed Successfully Set! - Effective: 8,990 KB/s (2x)

I 17:56:10 Advanced Settings - Optimal Writing Speed: No

I 17:56:11 Filling Buffer... (40 MB)

I 17:56:12 Writing LeadIn...

I 17:56:12 Writing Session 1 of 1... (1 Track, LBA: 0 - 18929407)

I 17:56:12 Writing Track 1 of 1... (MODE1/2048, LBA: 0 - 18929407)

I 17:56:12 Writing Layer 0... (LBA: 0 - 12219391)

I 18:42:49 Writing Layer 1... (LBA: 12219392 - 18929407)

I 19:08:26 Synchronising Cache...

I 19:08:27 Exporting Graph Data...

I 19:08:27 Graph Data File: C:\Users\HTPC-BD1\AppData\Roaming\ImgBurn\Graph Data Files\PIONEER_BD-RW_BDR-206_1.04_WEDNESDAY-JANUARY-26-2011_5-56_PM_TDKBLD-Wfa-000_2x.ibg

I 19:08:27 Export Successfully Completed!

I 19:08:27 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 01:12:16

I 19:08:27 Average Write Rate: 8,737 KB/s (1.9x) - Maximum Write Rate: 9,297 KB/s (2.1x)

I 19:08:27 Cycling Tray before Verify...

I 19:08:54 Device Ready!

I 19:08:55 Operation Started!

I 19:08:55 Source Device: [3:0:0] PIONEER BD-RW BDR-206 1.04 (I:) (ATA)

I 19:08:55 Source Media Type: BD-RE (Disc ID: TDKBLD-Wfa-000) (Speeds: 2x)

I 19:08:55 Image File: N:\KAXA_2000_1.ISO

I 19:08:55 Image File Sectors: 18,929,408 (MODE1/2048)

I 19:08:55 Image File Size: 38,767,427,584 bytes

I 19:08:55 Image File Volume Identifier: KAXA_2000_1

I 19:08:55 Image File Volume Set Identifier: 3E36B3D20120D673

I 19:08:55 Image File Application Identifier: ImgBurn v2.5.4.0

I 19:08:55 Image File Implementation Identifier: ImgBurn

I 19:08:55 Image File File System(s): UDF (2.50)

I 19:08:55 Read Speed (Data/Audio): MAX / MAX

I 19:08:55 Verifying Session 1 of 1... (1 Track, LBA: 0 - 18929407)

I 19:08:55 Verifying Track 1 of 1... (MODE1/2048, LBA: 0 - 18929407)

I 19:08:55 Verifying Layer 0... (LBA: 0 - 12219391)

W 19:37:17 Failed to Read Sector 10592480 - Reason: L-EC Uncorrectable Error

W 19:37:17 Sector 10592480 maps to File: \BDMV\STREAM\00005.m2ts

W 19:56:11 Retrying (1)...

I 19:56:13 Verifying Sectors...

W 19:56:51 Failed to Read Sector 10600768 - Reason: L-EC Uncorrectable Error

W 19:56:51 Sector 10600768 maps to File: \BDMV\STREAM\00005.m2ts

W 19:56:54 Retrying (1)...

I 19:56:57 Verifying Sectors...

W 19:57:14 Failed to Read Sector 10603840 - Reason: L-EC Uncorrectable Error

W 19:57:14 Sector 10603840 maps to File: \BDMV\STREAM\00005.m2ts

W 19:57:16 Retrying (1)...

I 19:57:19 Verifying Sectors...

W 19:57:35 Failed to Read Sector 10605376 - Reason: L-EC Uncorrectable Error

W 19:57:35 Sector 10605376 maps to File: \BDMV\STREAM\00005.m2ts

W 19:57:39 Failed to Read Sector 10605376 - Reason: L-EC Uncorrectable Error

W 19:57:39 Sector 10605376 maps to File: \BDMV\STREAM\00005.m2ts

W 19:57:47 Failed to Read Sector 10606592 - Reason: L-EC Uncorrectable Error

W 19:57:47 Sector 10606592 maps to File: \BDMV\STREAM\00005.m2ts

W 19:57:48 Failed to Read Sector 10606592 - Reason: L-EC Uncorrectable Error

W 19:57:48 Sector 10606592 maps to File: \BDMV\STREAM\00005.m2ts

W 19:57:55 Failed to Read Sector 10606912 - Reason: L-EC Uncorrectable Error

W 19:57:55 Sector 10606912 maps to File: \BDMV\STREAM\00005.m2ts

E 19:57:56 Failed to Read Sector 10606912 - Reason: L-EC Uncorrectable Error

E 19:57:56 Sector 10606912 maps to File: \BDMV\STREAM\00005.m2ts

E 19:57:57 Failed to Verify Sectors!

I 19:57:59 Exporting Graph Data...

I 19:57:59 Graph Data File: C:\Users\HTPC-BD1\AppData\Roaming\ImgBurn\Graph Data Files\PIONEER_BD-RW_BDR-206_1.04_WEDNESDAY-JANUARY-26-2011_5-56_PM_TDKBLD-Wfa-000_2x.ibg

I 19:57:59 Export Successfully Completed!

E 19:57:59 Operation Failed! - Duration: 00:49:01

I 19:57:59 Average Verify Rate: 7,213 KB/s (1.6x) - Maximum Verify Rate: 25,036 KB/s (5.6x)

I 20:31:14 Close Request Acknowledged

I 20:31:14 Closing Down...

I 20:31:14 Shutting down SPTI...

I 20:31:14 ImgBurn closed!

Edited January 30, 2011 by hamletiii

[LIGHTNING UK!]

You can't preserve a BD layer break, there's no way to move them on BD media.

 

The program / drive will always just burn to the end of the layer before starting on the next one.

 

As such, the MDS does nothing.

[hamletiii]

Then can you please explain the layer break in the picture?

I can definitely specify the amount of data in each layer with mds. You are saying that for Blu-ray, imgburn will ignore it and always burn layer0 to full?

My current experiment tells me that there's difinitely something going on with the mds, burning with mds, my two BD-RE DLs get destroyed; without the mds, the BD-RE DLs are fine, I can just rewrite over and over.

 

[LIGHTNING UK!]

The LB bit just shows what's specified in the source file.

 

For BD media, that value is never used anywhere.

 

The whole concept of layers went out the window with BD media. You treat them as a giant single layer disc.

[hamletiii]

This is certainly not true for any professional tools, the layer break still exists!

AFAIK, Scenarist BD and Blustreak with the capability of premastering support require properly set layer break for your project, otherwise it won't even allow you to mux.

Here is what the layer break setting in Scenarist BD looks like:

 

 

Normally, a layer break can be set at the chapter points just like DVD. But if you can't find any proper chapter points, you can put it anywhere in the middle of the movie.

 

In Scenarist BD, there's also something called sequence which determines the order of the files to be written. It is mostly for AACS file placement which they are required to be placed at very specific place on the disc disc. But of course for home/non-replication use, you can't put and you don't want AACS on the disc anyway. In latest version, they got rid of auto layout since the program is smarter at detecting layer break. I'm not sure how imgburn handles file writing order?

 

 

If you choose to write image in Scenarist BD, you can also output images by layer, which means you'll get two files as end result, one for each layer!

 

Edited February 11, 2011 by hamletiii

[hamletiii]

Also here are my experiences with Mitsubishi Kagaku's BD-RE DLs ID: TDKBLD-Wfa-000, I got 5 of them from ebay.

 

Disc 1 first time burned with mds+img, disc is 45.8GB, layer break is at sector 11,914,880. Then the next burn is iso with 36.1GB, the verification was failed at around 50%-70% of the sectors.

Disc 2 first time burned with mds+img, disc is 45.32GB. The subsequent burns failed verification on the second layer as well.

Disc 3 first time burned with iso, disc is 28.1GB. The subsequent burns report some bad sectors 12219584 to 12219615 (right on just the beginning of the second layer)

Disc 4 first time burned with iso, disc is 46.5GB. ALL subsequent burns have not exceed this size, and thus far all seem fine, writing and verification wise. Various formats are also tested including iso, img without mds, BDMV+certificate folder.

Disc 5 first time burned with iso, disc is 46.5GB. The subsequent burns have not exceed this size, and thus far all seem fine, writing and verification wise.

 

A note is that all first time burning are successful, and the verification is fine, discs play fine in PS3 which indicates they are good burns. The issue with bad sectors all developed from the second time burning!

SO my conclusion is that it is very important for the first time burning with actual data. The first time burning needs to be as full as possible (46.61GB), otherwise the next time you write data larger than that, there will be bad sectors regardless of the format. Based on the experience with disc 3, I imagine if I were to burn a disc larger than 46.5GB on disc 4 and 5, there will be bad sectors, but I will not waste my money and try that. Another interesting thing is that no matter how many bad sectors there are, I can still write all three discs without any problem, it's just that they will fail data verification since the bad sectors are permanent. And the actual reading in PS3 just verifies the bad sectors. I cannot eliminate the cause with imgburn either, since upto now, all first time burning are burned with imgburn. It seems ironically they are supposed to be rewritable discs, but end up to be one-timer like BD-Rs...

 

I'm not sure if this is a peculiar behavior for just this batch of discs, or the BD-RE DL technology in general are really that bad?

Will other brands such as Panasonic or SONY not suffer from this problem? I've seen a couple people saying media ID: MEI-T01-01 works better?

Any suggestion will be appreciated since I think I need more of BD-RE DLs to test my projects. Thanks.

Edited February 11, 2011 by hamletiii

[Cynthia]

This is certainly not true for any professional tools, the layer break still exists!

I would expect that those layer break settings are pre-settings for pressed discs.

 

Verbatim BD-RE seems to be the best discs.

[hamletiii]

I would expect that those layer break settings are pre-settings for pressed discs.

 

Verbatim BD-RE seems to be the best discs.

 

Since layer break settings work for DVD+R DLs (well, it's required for DVD technology), I don't see how it wouldn't work the same way for BDs?

I'm specifically asking for BD-RE DLs, Mistubishi-Verbatim only makes these TDK coded discs.

[Cynthia]

There is no layer break to be set in Adobe Encore CS4. Only available in DVD.

 

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/EncoreDVD/4.0/WSbaf9cd7d26a2eabfe807401038582db29-7ebfa.html#WSbaf9cd7d26a2eabfe807401038582db29-7ebba

 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1062025

[LIGHTNING UK!]

There's just no command available for moving the layer break on BD media. It's like DVD-R DL in that respect.

 

Like I said before, you just treat the discs as if the physical layer break didn't exist. Buffering in the players takes care of the momentary pause as the laser refocuses between layers.

 

I don't know if there is a BD version of the 'SPLIP' flag found in the DVD IFO files that typically gets cleared on a cell starting out on the 2nd layer. If there isn't, what you set in Scenarist probably makes no difference anyway.

 

Have you tried creating 2 sets of output files with the LB in different places and doing a file compare between them?

[hamletiii]

There's just no command available for moving the layer break on BD media. It's like DVD-R DL in that respect.

 

Like I said before, you just treat the discs as if the physical layer break didn't exist. Buffering in the players takes care of the momentary pause as the laser refocuses between layers.

 

I don't know if there is a BD version of the 'SPLIP' flag found in the DVD IFO files that typically gets cleared on a cell starting out on the 2nd layer. If there isn't, what you set in Scenarist probably makes no difference anyway.

 

Have you tried creating 2 sets of output files with the LB in different places and doing a file compare between them?

 

It's good to know the real reason behind the layer break support.

I have tried in setting the LB in different places, both output are BD-REv3 img format (The BDCMF are for replication and have forced AACS, therefore not included for test).

The result is the two images have the same size, but hash values are different! Comparing them in a hexeditor shows many differences.

When you output images, you also get the following extra files:

file_addr.map (contains the file sequences info I talked about earlier)

Layer1LSNInfo.txt (contains layer break sector)

MDC_Image0.dat

Pic_info_mux.dat

ucd0.dat (it's for layer0 info, but filled with ALL 0s, the size typically ranges somewhere 200MB+ and proportional to the layer break setting)

ucd0.dat.SHA

ucd1.dat (it's for layer1 info, but filled with ALL 0s, the size typically ranges somewhere 100MB+ and proportional to the layer break setting)

ucd1.dat.SHA

 

These files seem to be used for replication purpose, I found a patent explaining these files HERE.

Edited February 20, 2011 by hamletiii

[hamletiii]

Hi, LIGHTNING UK! I would also like to hear your opinions on why I'm getting all these bad sectors on layer1? Have you had this issue with your TDK coded BD-RE DLs?

I wrote the first two discs with mds+img, both img files fit BD50 quite full with one at 45.3GB and one at 45.7GB. Since mds does not do anything, I could only be suspecting img files from Scenarist BD has something to do with it since changing layer break setting affect the way it writes img files?

 

The third disc that gets screwed up is due to writing more data on the second burn than first burn with all burns writing with ISO or BDMV+CERTIFICATE folders, and I'm getting bad sectors again, but minor than mds+img way.

What could be the reason behind this one? Thanks.

[hamletiii]

Bump for a response, thanks.

Edited February 27, 2011 by hamletiii

[LIGHTNING UK!]

It's nothing to do with what you're burning, it's just the drive producing an unreadable burn or the discs being bad in the first place.

 

Have you updated to the 1.05 firmware?

 

Doing a few full erases (In ImgBurn) on the discs may sort them out.

[hamletiii]

Just some follow up:

1. This mds+img seems to be specific to Pioneer burners, since I got someone else having the same issue where the discs have permanent bad sectors with a BDR-S05XLB. But he claims that when writing mds+img using an LG GGW-H20L, everything works fine.

 

2. No, I haven't updated the firmware because there seems to be some problem with their "ODD" flashing software or the firmware itself. Some people have been reporting the dreaded "Available target is not found" error they got when flashing their drives. There was a fixed release last month, but it's for the European version BDR-206D. I guess I'll wait and see.