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UDF BDR created. Now Windows won't read it back. Bad batch of discs, or an error on my part?


Bassthang

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I've used IMGBurn for years to write archive discs - mostly of my music files (multi-track projects in Pro Tools and Cubase, WAVs and MP3s). It's rarely caused any problems (apart from understanding how to do certain things in IMGBurn).
I've used Verbatim BDRs consistently for many years.
I recently ordered a new cake of Verbatim Datalife BDRs and used some to burn discs of some music projects (files only) on my WinXP PC. No problems.
Then I moved to my Win10 laptop and did a BDR of some large video files. (I don't normally do this - I just copy my video files to a HDD. But I thought while I had the writer out I should give it a try.)
One file was >4GB so I was prompted to use UDF format. I found that option and set it up. IMGBurn also kept telling me that it wanted to change the format as it detected a video file in the root, so to ensure it just did a file backup I put all the files into a folder, so nothing was loose in the root. It's supposed to be a backup disc, not a playable disc.
The job ran and completed successfully. However, Win10 wouldn't read back the disc. I was surprised, as I can't really recall the last time I had a disc fail that wasn't due to something I did wrong.
Both machines used the same USB laptop-style Samsung Blu-ray writer (which is the best media writer I've ever used).
ALL the discs I've written from this new pack are a bit weird - I can see dark rings on the disc surfaces which look to me like some sort of write failure (not merely where the write ended - all discs were pretty much full). Photos attached of the bad disc and one of the "good" discs - all from the same batch. I don't see these rings on discs made using previous batches of Verbatim BDR.
 

The possibilities are:
1) I haven't correctly used IMGBurn for this format of disc (likely).
2) Windows10 has problems with reading UDF discs (I haven't yet tried it on other machines: I have WinXP, Win7, and Linux PCs to try it with, and I can borrow a Mac)
3) The new Verbatim discs are a bad batch, but the problems are only showing up (so far. . .) on the UDF formatted job.
4) Those "W 23:23:04 Device Arrival Detected!" lines in the log look like the connection to the USB drive might have been intermittent? I''d have expected this to kill the ongoing job though. . .

I really hope it's not (3)!!!! I've just spotted a thread in this forum saying that Verbatim sold their process to another company that already has a reputation for producing poor quality discs. I'm not too bothered about the video files (although a bit annoyed that for the first time in ages I've ended up with a coaster), but I'm starting to worry about the long-term reliability of the music project discs.

If the Verbatim discs are now poor quality, which brand of discs do forum members recommend? I can't afford to buy MDISC!

Log file of the failed job (note that the job itself was successful):

; //****************************************\\
;   ImgBurn Version 2.5.8.0 - Log
;   Saturday, 09 April 2022, 23:34:40
; \\****************************************//
;
;
I 22:58:41 ImgBurn Version 2.5.8.0 started!
I 22:58:41 Microsoft Windows 8 Core x64 Edition (6.2, Build 9200)
I 22:58:41 Total Physical Memory: 4,057,340 KiB  -  Available: 653,060 KiB
I 22:58:41 Initialising SPTI...
I 22:58:41 Searching for SCSI / ATAPI devices...
I 22:58:44 -> Drive 1 - Info: TSSTcorp BDDVDW SE-506CB TS01 (D:) (USB 2.0)
I 22:58:44 Found 1 BD-RE XL!
I 23:02:07 Operation Started!
I 23:02:07 Building Image Tree...
I 23:02:07 Checking Directory Depth...
I 23:02:07 Calculating Totals...
I 23:02:07 Preparing Image...
E 23:02:07 File size exceeds the limit imposed by the ISO9660 file system.
E 23:02:07 Name: [filename removed from log]
E 23:02:07 Size: 4,528,493,937 bytes
E 23:02:20 Operation Failed! - Duration: 00:00:13
I 23:02:39 Operation Started!
I 23:02:39 Building Image Tree...
I 23:02:39 Calculating Totals...
I 23:02:39 Preparing Image...
I 23:02:39 Contents: 7 Files, 1 Folder
I 23:02:39 Content Type: Data
I 23:02:39 Data Type: MODE1/2048
I 23:02:39 File System(s): UDF (1.02)
I 23:02:39 Volume Label: [Not Configured]
I 23:02:39 Size: 24,837,447,428 bytes
I 23:02:39 Sectors: 12,127,663
I 23:02:39 Image Size: 24,838,012,928 bytes
I 23:02:39 Image Sectors: 12,127,936
I 23:02:39 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:00:00
I 23:02:45 Operation Started!
I 23:02:45 Building Image Tree...
I 23:03:01 Calculating Totals...
I 23:03:01 Preparing Image...
I 23:03:01 Contents: 7 Files, 1 Folder
I 23:03:01 Content Type: Data
I 23:03:01 Data Type: MODE1/2048
I 23:03:01 File System(s): UDF (1.02)
I 23:03:01 Volume Label: Films and TV 1
I 23:03:01 Size: 24,837,447,428 bytes
I 23:03:01 Sectors: 12,127,663
I 23:03:01 Image Size: 24,838,012,928 bytes
I 23:03:01 Image Sectors: 12,127,936
I 23:03:08 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:00:23
I 23:03:08 Operation Started!
I 23:03:08 Source File: -==/\/[BUILD IMAGE]\/\==-
I 23:03:08 Source File Sectors: 12,127,936 (MODE1/2048)
I 23:03:08 Source File Size: 24,838,012,928 bytes
I 23:03:08 Source File Volume Identifier: Films and TV 1
I 23:03:08 Source File Volume Set Identifier: 5489B85600B90EBD
I 23:03:08 Source File Application Identifier: ImgBurn v2.5.8.0
I 23:03:08 Source File Implementation Identifier: ImgBurn
I 23:03:08 Source File File System(s): UDF (1.02)
I 23:03:08 Destination Device: [0:0:0] TSSTcorp BDDVDW SE-506CB TS01 (D:) (USB)
I 23:03:08 Destination Media Type: BD-R (Disc ID: CMCMAG-BA5-000)
I 23:03:08 Destination Media Supported Write Speeds: 2x, 4x, 6x
I 23:03:08 Destination Media Sectors: 12,219,392
I 23:03:08 Write Mode: BD
I 23:03:08 Write Type: DAO
I 23:03:08 Write Speed: 2x
I 23:03:08 Hardware Defect Management Active: No
I 23:03:08 BD-R Verify Not Required: Yes
I 23:03:08 Link Size: Auto
I 23:03:08 Lock Volume: Yes
I 23:03:08 Test Mode: No
I 23:03:08 OPC: No
I 23:03:08 BURN-Proof: Enabled
I 23:03:08 Write Speed Successfully Set! - Effective: 8,992 KB/s (2x)
I 23:04:08 Filling Buffer... (80 MiB)
I 23:04:11 Writing LeadIn...
I 23:04:30 Writing Session 1 of 1... (1 Track, LBA: 0 - 12127935)
I 23:04:30 Writing Track 1 of 1... (MODE1/2048, LBA: 0 - 12127935)
W 23:23:04 Device Arrival Detected!
W 23:23:04 The device list will be refreshed at the next available opportunity.
W 23:23:47 Device Arrival Detected!
W 23:23:47 The device list will be refreshed at the next available opportunity.
I 23:30:10 Synchronising Cache...
I 23:30:19 Closing Track...
I 23:30:20 Finalising Disc...
I 23:31:39 Exporting Graph Data...
I 23:31:40 Graph Data File: C:\Users\[username removed from log]\AppData\Roaming\ImgBurn\Graph Data Files\TSSTcorp_BDDVDW_SE-506CB_TS01_09-APRIL-2022_23-03_CMCMAG-BA5-000_2x.ibg
I 23:31:40 Export Successfully Completed!
I 23:31:40 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:28:31
I 23:31:40 Average Write Rate: 15,760 KiB/s (3.6x) - Maximum Write Rate: 26,946 KiB/s (6.1x)
I 23:31:43 Searching for SCSI / ATAPI devices...
I 23:31:49 -> Drive 1 - Info: TSSTcorp BDDVDW SE-506CB TS01 (D:) (USB 2.0)
I 23:31:49 Found 1 BD-RE XL!
I 23:34:38 Close Request Acknowledged
I 23:34:38 Closing Down...
I 23:34:38 Shutting down SPTI...
I 23:34:39 ImgBurn closed!

IMG_20220410_093515_suspect Verbatim BDR_successful write.jpg

IMG_20220410_093458_suspect Verbatim BDR_UDF format.jpg

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You could try inserting one of these failed burns and doing a manual Verify.  You probably can't Verify against the image file contents as you most likely don't have the image file anymore, so the Verify isn't as thorough, but it might return an error message that may be helpful here.

 

This could be your problem:

I 23:03:08 Destination Media Type: BD-R (Disc ID: CMCMAG-BA5-000)

 

You talked about Verbatim being bought up by they who shall not be named.  They are CMC Magnetics, which makes the worst optical discs out there.  So, you do have the bad discs.  However, depending on where you live in the world, BD-R from Verbatim may only be CMC.  In the US, BD-R is VERBAT-IM, so it's made by Verbatim and I've rarely had a failure with those that wasn't the result of a drive needing replacing.  Unfortunately, I can't think of anyone else who doesn't use CMC for their BD-R.  Verbatim uses both their own manufacturing process and CMC.  But, they've done that for years on CD and DVD media, too.

 

What country do you live in?

 

Those rings in the recording surface were actually fairly common in my older days of burning BD-R.  I don't know why they're there, but they apparently didn't affect the quality of the discs.  The burns with those rings in them passed Verifies and, 5 or 6 years later, the contents were still readable.

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Thanks for the quick response, dbminter. Much appreciated. Sorry for the delay in replying, but it's been a rollercoaster few days here, and I'm just catching up on things. . .
That's reassuring about those rings. I've never seen those before (on Verbatim or other media), so I was worried for a while.

I'm in England. I used to buy my BDRs from Scan, but I bought this last cake from Amazon to save a bit of money (free delivery).

If CMC make the worst optical discs out there, then that implies there are better discs to be had. Which manufacturers do people on this forum recommend?
Or is it a case of sticking with Verbatim and checking very carefully that they are home-grown Verbatim discs rather than outsourced CMC discs? Perhaps order them from a supplier in the USA?
Sorry if I've misunderstood, but I'm still getting to grips with this very unclear situation.

This is rather like the situation I remember a couple of years ago, when I was getting concerned about whether the current Verbatim discs were HTL or LTH (as I'd heard that some were HTL and others LTH - and there being almost no way of knowing) and writing to Verbatim's support to ask the question. I was reassured that all their discs now used the inorganic HTL. I thought that from then on I could relax and just re-order Verbatim discs in future. I never thought that they'd flog the whole system off to another (lower-quality) supplier.

How on earth did it come to this? What do IT professionals use these days for their archiving? (I used to be an IT support person, but left the industry in 2010, so I'm mostly out of touch.) I suppose it would have to be M-disc. I might resort to buying some of these for the most important files (recording session multi-track backups, which these days can run into tens of GB per song).

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The rings are only "good" on BD-R.  Any rings that would show up on organic dye discs would result in data read errors.

 

Unfortunately, it's the nature of the beast.  In North America, Verbatim makes the good BD-R.  It seems in other parts of the world, Verbatim uses CMC for their BD-R.  There really are no other options.  All the other manufacturers of BD-R, to my knowledge, use CMC because they're cheap, but they can charge "quality" level prices for their good names on the labels.  To be honest, I'm surprised Verbatim still makes their own quality stuff or uses Mitsubishi for their good CD and DVD discs.  I would have thought with CMC at the helm, they'd have shelved all the quality discs and just slapped Verbatim's good DataLife Plus name on their CMC junk.

 

You could try importing good Verbatim BD-R from North America.  To my knowledge, all Verbatim BD-R sold in North America is VERBAT-IM, and not CMC.  Of course, that's more expensive and it's not guaranteed to solve your problem.

 

Also be aware since I'm in North America, my perspective is almost entirely limited to this continent.  Other parts of the world may have better options that I'm not aware of.

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  • 2 months later...

Update. . .
I've been off doing other things for a while, but tonight I got back onto burning BDRs. Same cake of discs. So far, awful results! However, I'm not 100% sure it's just a bad batch of discs.
Because of the nature of the files, this next disc had to be UDF. Partway through writing the disc, it all went quiet. I checked IMGBURN and saw a report at the foot of the screen about waiting for the HDD threshold. Sure enough, Windows Task Manager showed 100% HDD activity, with "System" being at the top.
I killed some update processes (which shouldn't even be running, as I opted to stop updates for a few weeks), and the HDD went down to a decent level. IMGBURN kicked back into life again. This happened a few times during a very long write process.
The Verify process was also slow, and about 1/4 way through started producing read errors. Although IMGBURN offers to ignore the errors after a while, there were so many (>138 so far - it's still running. . .) that the verify process may take hours. I'll probably just give up. Looks like I've got a coaster. . .

Some background: this is a Dell Inspiron laptop which came with Win10, which has given me some grief for quite a while. It was great when I first had it, but a couple of Windows updates along, it went very slow. It had a complete wipe and clean re-install which seemed to help for a bit, but a few months after that it was slow again. Worse than that, it often just locks up with 100% HDD, often with Win update processes hogging it all, or sometimes just System. Sometimes the machine runs well. But - usually at weekends - it goes into this spiral of degrading performance, eventually becoming useless for a few hours while it's doing "something". I have to go off and do something else until it feels like working for me again. I used to blame MS for their rubbish OS, but I have an older (also Dell) laptop that runs Win10 perfectly well. So I'm guessing that Dell have just built a lemon this time round.

BUT on the other hand, this is the same machine, same USB drive and the same IMGBURN that quite happily burned scores of BDRs for me a couple of years ago, so maybe it is just poor quality discs. I think I'll fire off a complaint to Verbatim - what's the point of even selling these discs if more than half of them are not going to work?

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I would still say the problem is the CMC Mag discs.  However, in Europe, Verbatim BD-R may only be available that way.  Here in the States, Verbatim BD-R is of good quality with an MID of VERBAT-IM.

 

You're also using a TSST drive, which have been known to be problematic.  Particularly if it's a slim model.  But, that doesn't explain how you said the drive had been working with these discs before years ago.  That indicates the drive is the problem.  And that it may have reached the end of its life.

 

You could try getting an external BD drive and see if you have better results.  Particularly a half height model and not a slim one.  Conversely, buy an internal half height BD burner and put it in a USB 3.0 enclosure like either of VanTech's 1st or 2nd generation models or an Other World Computing one.  I use the LG WH16NS60 and VanTech.  Both 1st and 2nd generation work, although with the 2nd generation, you cannot update the firmware of an NS60 with it.  It stops attempting to flash at 0% because it never finds it after detecting it.  Putting it in a 1st generation VanTech enclosure works.  OWN's unit works, but if you power off the enclosure, you MUST restart Windows before it's detected again on power back on.  It does this with NS60 but not Pioneer 212 units.

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Thanks for the suggestions. I hope it's not the drive! This has been the most reliable writer I've ever had. It's a USB-connected Samsung SE-506. What I like about it is that, being a slimline drive, it doesn't suffer from that problem where the magnets that clamp the disc in place change strength with time, rendering the whole unit useless. The disc is simply held by some spring-loaded bearings. Or is that issue a thing of the past now? From your post, it would seem that there are problems with just about every system. This is an awful state of affairs.

You mention updating firmware. Is this something that needs to be done when new discs come to market, or just when new features are available? I vaguely recall seeing mentions somewhere of having to update drives to use different media. Perhaps that's what my problem is. After all, these are different and newer discs to those that the drive worked well with.

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This is actually the first I've ever heard of magnets being used to hold discs in place.  And I have to tend to doubt it because if it's an internal drive, I'd have to say magnets in an optical disc drive might interfere with the HDD, particularly in a laptop.  As far as I know, every slim model I've ever used has had spring mechanisms in it.

 

Firmware updates do tend to do things like add support for newer discs, but also better reliability for certain older discs, too.  Plus, manufacturing processes can change on media, resulting in discs no longer working.  That's what happened to the NS60 and the MCC DVD-R.  Firmware 1.02 no longer supported them, but the 1.03 update did.  You can check for a firmware update, but if it's external, you most likely won't find an update and even if you did, it probably wouldn't help in this case.

 

How old is this Samsung drive?  If you've been using it for years, it most likely just gave up the ghost.  BD burners have 2 lasers in them: one for CD/DVD and one for BD.  So, that effectively doubles the likelihood of something going wrong versus a DVD burner.  That's why BD burners don't last as long as DVD ones used to.

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Full-size internal CD, DVD and bluray drives with trays used to clamp the disc. The clamps had magnets to hold them together. There used to be lots of problems with the strength of those magnets varying over time (I think they often became stronger) and the drives not holding (or not releasing) the discs and jamming up. I can't find anything online about this now, but a few years ago it was definitely a thing. You could find articles explaining how to put small shims inside to increase the gap and reduce the magnet's effect. I remember doing it a couple of times, but it only worked for a while. Odd that I can't find those articles now!

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This is the nearest I can find to the issues I remember:
https://www.electronicspoint.com/forums/threads/cd-r-w-drive-spindle-clamp-magnet-catastrophic-failure.61054/

I've also been onto Samsung's support pages and got the address for their optical drive support dept. (I had to ask a chat operator). I'll see what they have to say about firmware.

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CD-RW drives may have had those magnets.  I only ever had the one CD-R drive back in either 2000 or 2001.  Starting in 2002, I've had nothing but DVD and BD drives.

 

You can check for firmware updates in Write mode by right clicking on the drive in the left hand pane and choosing the item near the bottom about firmware updates.

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There is one flaw with that feature.  It opens a web page for firmwarehq but that site doesn't have all the latest firmware updates.  For instance, 1.03 of LG WH16NS60 is not on that site; you have to get it from LG's site.

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To be honest, you probably won't find a firmware update for an external device.  For whatever reason, manufacturers don't like to release firmware updates for external devices.  My theory, cynical as it is, is if they only release new firmware on new devices, it serves as an enticement to dump your old hardware and buy their latest one.

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Strange that you couldn't find a firmware update on firmwarehq, because there is one there:

https://www.firmwarehq.com/Samsung/SE-506CB/files.html

 

TS02 does appear to be the last firmware released for it that consumers can download.  Doesn't mean it's the latest, though.  For instance, 1.02 of the LG WH16NS60 is not available for downloading off of LG's site.  Only 1.01 and 1.03.  1.02 could only be had as a base firmware installed at the factory.

 

To be honest, I doubt it will help you.  The issue doesn't appear to be firmware based as you would most likely have experienced problems with the drive from the very beginning.

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  • 11 months later...

Sorry for the delay in this update, but I've been distracted by a slowly-unfolding family tragedy over the last year or so. That situation has now resolved itself, but I'm now a single parent on low income, so there are still tough times ahead. . .

Anyway, I'm now able to return to the issue (for a while - until the next catastrophe arrives).

I did do some tests a few months ago. I found that my existing drive works perfectly well with some Verbatim BDRWs that I have. These discs were bought at the same time as my writer and the first batch of Verbatim BDRs. But if I try to write the same files on the same writer to one of the new Verbatim BDRs - problems again. I had the same results with both my Win10 laptop and a WinXP tower.
All this suggests that  - firmware update aside - it is not the writer or the host system that is at fault. It all points to the discs.

I'll try the firmware update anyway (thanks for the link, DBMinter). If this doesn't help, then the options are to buy a new writer (as suggested) or try different brands of disc. The problem is that whenever I look into any brand online, I see positive reviews alongside reviews that talk about 50%+ failure rates. So my question for the team is this: which BDR discs currently available in the UK ARE reliable? What are you guys using?

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I can't answer as to the UK part as I live in the US.  I use VERBAT-IM BD-R made by Verbatim.  However, it seems in places like Europe, Verbatim BD-R are not the same quality as those I can get off of Amazon.com.

 

I would recommend the LG WH16NS60 if you can find it.  Otherwise, try the NS40, but last time I used it years ago and others reported similar issues here, double layer BD media do not write properly on that.  Although a firmware update since those years ago might have helped those issues.

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Thanks for the info. I'll look into your drive recommendations.

Are there any UK or European members reading this who can recommend any disc brands available here? Or, conversely, are any UK members happy with the quality of the current Verbatim BDR stock?
(I suppose I could opt to use the more expensive M-disc for the really important archives. . .)

 

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On 4/10/2022 at 5:07 AM, Bassthang said:

I've used IMGBurn for years to write archive discs - mostly of my music files (multi-track projects in Pro Tools and Cubase, WAVs and MP3s)

If these are standard 44.1/16-bit WAV files, you are better off converting them to FLAC since sound quality will be the same (since it's a lossless format) but roughly half of the file size etc. basically there is no real reason to burn WAV as a data disc for general data backup over FLAC (even if you need WAV for whatever reason in the future, it's easy to convert it back to WAV, and of course, no sound quality loss).

 

but for your general situation... in the future, I suggest sticking to DVD recordable (Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden) as they are probably not as picky as BD-R stuff is in my estimations. I think BD-R is more of a question mark for longevity where as I think CD-R/DVD-/+R is more time proven and, like I always say, it's easier to find a drive that can read CD/DVD where as BD media is not widely adopted like CD/DVD was where just about everyone had one of those drives in the past at some point in the 2000's decade and thereabouts. so while I realize you only get 4.7GB(DVD-/+R) vs 25GB(BD-R), unless you have a lot of high importance data you need for long term storage, DVD is 'good enough' as for most of my backup I tend to opt for the more efficient two hard drive setup as this keeps ones chances of data loss low enough and it's far more convenient where as stuff I burn on DVD tends to be much more limited and is a nice alternative/insurance for a limited amount of high importance data I don't want to lose.

and personally... I don't think M-DISC are worth the extra cost. even assuming they last a long time, the price is too inflated and decent quality CD/DVD media will likely last 'at least' decades in my experience given I checked the disc quality of some discs (largely Verbatim and some TY(Taiyo Yuden)) I burned around 10-15 years ago (I date my discs when I burn them so I know exactly when I burned them) with KProbe etc and they still scan well to this day (i.e. not even close to failure).

so if you do get some DVD recordable media, after burning, while it's not required, if you are concerned with longevity it's a good idea to get a feel of the initial burn quality as the better they are initially the longer they should last in theory given, assuming they degrade more on the slow side, it will buy a person that much more time before read failure etc.

p.s. the stuff I burn with IMGBurn (I use IMGBurn on Linux to burn stuff not all that long ago) reads okay on my Linux Mint computer. so I imagine if this reads okay, Windows 10 should have no issues reading a burned disc. I see you mentioned you got a 'WinXP' PC, unless you must keep WinXP on that computer for whatever reason, I suggest wiping the drive and installing some form of Linux (which is free) on it as you can still use ImgBurn on that if you want to.

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I do have somewhat of a real world result for how long BD-R last.  I had one I burned 7 years ago back in March where all the contents read back fine from last week.  So, BD-R should last at least 5 to 10 years.

 

But, I've also had DVD-R from last year that were readable after I had burned them 19 years before.

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Thanks for your thoughts on the formats and longevity. I've recently read some old CDs that were written in the 90s and they seem OK, so I reckon your findings are spot-on. I also tend to copy files from my older archive CDs to new DVDs every few years, just in case. I'd rather have 2 or 3 copies of a file than none!
DVD is not an option for some of my data, though. We're talking multi-track audio (Pro Tools and the like) from home recording projects and backups of my band's professional studio projects (which can be huge) so a single project would have to be split across dozens of DVDs. Not ideal. Likewise, my partner's digital photos (which I'm currently sifting though) take up a lot of space.

It's such a shame that the BDR format seems to have been nobbled and sidelined by the manufacturers. I rather liked the ability to treat them simply as "bigger DVDs". This keeps happening in the history of technology - I remember investing in Mini-discs in the 90s. They worked well for recording audio, but that technology was hamstrung by the manufacturer's paranoia about copying and digital rights management. If they'd allowed them to be used as data stores too, they might have caught on.

The WinXP machine is my Music PC, running Pro Tools and older software like Cubase and some vintage Adobe products (I now use Affinity on my laptop for my art and design, but sometimes it's quicker to just go back to a simpler Adobe tool to do some jobs). It doesn't connect to the Internet any more, nor is it used for day-to-day tasks. It's also where I run my old PC games (Doom, Quake, Unreal, Half-life and so on). I like it just the way it is - what a breath of fresh air it is to use XP after faffing around with Win10!
I do have some Linux PCs too (still trying to decide which distro is best for me), and I now have the use of my late partner's Mac laptop, so I have a lot more options.

I'll report back on the firmware, discs and 

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10 hours ago, dbminter said:

I do have somewhat of a real world result for how long BD-R last.  I had one I burned 7 years ago back in March where all the contents read back fine from last week.  So, BD-R should last at least 5 to 10 years.

But, I've also had DVD-R from last year that were readable after I had burned them 19 years before.

Yeah. that's why I tend to prefer DVD because given they have lasted 10-20 years already, and if there is no obvious degradation with KProbe scan etc, chances are they are going to last at least decades, unless of course disc deterioration starts to hit a disc rapidly out of no where, which I would 'guess' is unlikely.

but I guess on paper, since they went from CD to DVD to BD, while you get more data on each disc, they are all the same physical size so it's cramming more data into a smaller space, which at least theoretically, makes it more susceptible error (like read errors etc).

 

1 hour ago, Bassthang said:

Thanks for your thoughts on the formats and longevity. I've recently read some old CDs that were written in the 90s and they seem OK, so I reckon your findings are spot-on. I also tend to copy files from my older archive CDs to new DVDs every few years, just in case. I'd rather have 2 or 3 copies of a file than none!

In my opinion, that's largely a waste of time to re-copy to 'newer' CD/DVD's etc.

but I do agree, as extra insurance, that besides the usual two copies on two different hard drives method (which is more practical in general since it's minimal effort and convenient and offers a reasonable level of protection against data loss), that having a one copy on say Verbatim media and another copy on Taiyo Yuden media offers that much more insurance as I do this occasionally, but I would never consider re-burning it given the current copies show no signs of degrading (which KProbe etc scans would show since you can keep original scan after burning, then compare it to a newer scan you do many years later).

but after a certain point this stuff almost starts to become a bit obsessive, which is why I figure a good balance of things is the two hard drive stuff along with at least one copy on DVD media etc (although for super high importance stuff, two different kinds of DVD media for example are all that much better because the odds of both of those dying at the same time is probably slim enough).

 

1 hour ago, Bassthang said:

DVD is not an option for some of my data, though. We're talking multi-track audio (Pro Tools and the like) from home recording projects and backups of my band's professional studio projects (which can be huge) so a single project would have to be split across dozens of DVDs. Not ideal. Likewise, my partner's digital photos (which I'm currently sifting though) take up a lot of space.

Yeah, I understand.

because in terms of optical media, for really a large project, BD-R is more practical (given 25GB a disc vs 4.7GB). but 'may' be more risky in terms of longevity of discs and there is less drives to read it available to the masses etc.

honestly though, if I had many TB's of data to backup, short of super high importance data, I would just stick to regular hard drives, just use more hard drives... like besides the usual two copies on two different hard drives, which is a good bare minimum convenient standard, just use more and keep some offline for extra insurance against viruses etc and accidental data deletion.

hell, most of the data I backup I stick to the two hard drive method since it offers the best balance of convenience(like ease-of-backup/using that data)/data security.

p.s. just speaking for myself... even for backing up digital photos (i.e. family photos etc) I noticed a good portion of what I have backed up, is a bit of excess as I could probably get rid of some pictures to save space since most pictures are nothing TOO special. but then I get as a side effect of this, it takes time (probably quite a bit depending on how much you have to sort though) to sort through these and tune it before burning to say DVD etc, which while it makes the final disc one burns of higher quality pictures/videos etc, the time it takes to do this can be a lot. so I guess one tries their best to balance things.

 

1 hour ago, Bassthang said:

It's such a shame that the BDR format seems to have been nobbled and sidelined by the manufacturers.

I think a lot of the reason why BD-R never took off like CD/DVD is lack of general public using it since it seems many switched over to streaming etc. optical disc seem to be limited to a limited amount of people nowadays.

the only reason I still use optical media is because I feel it's the all-around best alternative for backing up data for long term storage if you put hard drives aside. plus, optical media ain't prone to accidental data deletion etc. it's a nice way to permanently store data for at least years, but probably decades.

1 hour ago, Bassthang said:

The WinXP machine is my Music PC, running Pro Tools and older software like Cubase and some vintage Adobe products (I now use Affinity on my laptop for my art and design, but sometimes it's quicker to just go back to a simpler Adobe tool to do some jobs). It doesn't connect to the Internet any more, nor is it used for day-to-day tasks. It's also where I run my old PC games (Doom, Quake, Unreal, Half-life and so on). I like it just the way it is - what a breath of fresh air it is to use XP after faffing around with Win10!
I do have some Linux PCs too (still trying to decide which distro is best for me), and I now have the use of my late partner's Mac laptop, so I have a lot more options.

I see. like one of those machines you don't like to touch since it's good for old school stuff. I totally get it ;)

p.s. speaking of old games, I got MAME (arcade emulator) setup on some of my PC's for playing my favorite fighting games, which are the arcade versions from the 1990's (which I used to play all besides MK1 in the arcades back in the 1990's), Mortal Kombat 1 through Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 (i.e. MK1/MK2/MK3/UMK3) and Killer Instinct as I have been playing around with these once again lately on my X-Arcade stick (which I bought back in the 2000's decade as it's the older serial port version which I got the adapter that converts it to the more modern USB connection). anyways, the games you mentioned I played those at one point in the last to (like back in the 1990's etc). my single favorite gaming experience would be Mafia (2002) which, while one could setup on a old Windows computer (as I do have this setup on a old computer running Windows 7 (also has Linux Mint on it)) as a backup, it works on my primary PC running Linux Mint computer through Lutris/Wine etc.

 

2 hours ago, Bassthang said:

I do have some Linux PCs too (still trying to decide which distro is best for me)

 

Yeah, while there are plenty of choices (as there is no definitive answer)... I think Linux Mint is one of the safest choices for beginners and people in general (it's been around longer than most and stuff is more likely to 'just work' etc). because it's based on Ubuntu (the current Linux Mint 21.x series is based on Ubuntu 22.04 LTS) which is similar enough to Debian as these have been around a long time (Debian since 1993 and Ubuntu since 2004. Mint has been around since 2006) so are a bit more common/somewhat standard. but one area Mint shines over many others is the amount of time it's supported for as each major version is basically 2 years apart and is supported for pretty much 5 years...

-Linux Mint v20.x (released about mid-2020) = supported until April 2025

-Linux Mint v21.x (released about mid-2022) = supported until April 2027

and if the pattern holds, which it probably while, Mint v22.x will be released about mid-2024 and supported until April 2029.

the default kernel for newest Mint 21.x is currently 5.15 which that kernel was from Nov 2021. so as long as someones hardware is not too recent it should be okay. even if they need a newer kernel you can install newer ones on Mint through the OS itself. but generally... the Mint team suggests sticking to the kernel that comes with it unless you have a specific reason (like newer hardware support etc) to need a newer one.

anyways, it seems a fair amount of other Linux variations only have support in the 2-3 years range before one would have to upgrade where as Mint is pretty much 5 years (technically it's not a full five years, but close enough).

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One of the reasons I knew those DVD-R's lasted so long was I was copying most of them over to new DVD-R.  These earlier ones were made before I had learned of CMC and what cheap media can do.  So, I was taking all the burned DVD-R that were not Taiyo Yuden or MCC and copying them to better quality MCC's.  I had a few Maxell discs that wouldn't read and I discarded, but I think those were down to the LG drive used as the reader.  LG's are not the best readers and will fail to read in some discs other drives like Pioneer's will.  I was not aware of that at the time and only learned later through trial and error.  So, some of those discs I couldn't read might actually have been salvageable.

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