hbenthow Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) I have an LG WH14NS40 Blu-ray burner which has worked well for a number of years on multiple computers (I've replaced the computers but kept the drive, switching it to each new one). I have used IMGBurn to burn DVDs and Blu-rays for years now, with very few problems. I use the automatic verify option of IMGBurn, which automatically cycles the tray then verifies the disc that has just been burned. It usually works correctly. However, I decided to burn some DVDs last night, and ran into problems. The first one burned and verified without incident. The second one seemingly burned without incident, but when the tray finished cycling, BD-Rebuilder was taking forever to verify it. The verification was at a rate of about 50 kbps, and it was estimating that it would take about 36 hours to finish. Meanwhile, the burner was making a pitiful noise like it was straining to try to read information off of the disc. I canceled the verification. I've had this problem a few times before, but it was always just a once-off that would happen once every few months or so. So I assumed that this would again be the case. I then tried burning the disc again (to a different blank disc), and it burned and verified without incident. But the next disc that I burned ran into the same verification problem. I tried burning to another disc, and the problem hit again. I ejected the last disc that gave me an error and put it back in to try to verify it with IMGBurn again, and the same problem continued. But I then closed IMGBurn, ejected the disc and put it back in yet again, then reopened IMGBurn and selected its verify option, and was able to successfully verify the disc against the ISO I had burned it from in just a few minutes. (I still don't trust the disc, though.) This error striking three times in one night has me extremely worried. Does anyone know what could be causing this problem or what I should do about it? The IMGBurn log is included as an attachment. ImgBurn.log Edited July 17, 2017 by hbenthow
dbminter Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 If you've been using this drive for years, it's probably just reached the end of its life. On the extreme low end, you'll get 5 months out of an optical burner before it needs replacing. On the high end, 18 months to 2 years. If you really have had a drive that has lasted for years with relatively few issues, consider yourself pretty lucky. I'd peg it down to its age. The log you posted isn't very helpful. It's several logs contained in one log and, although I just glanced through it, I didn't see any errors reported in those logs. Just requests to cancel the Verifies. Without an actual error code, I doubt there's very little we can do.
hbenthow Posted July 17, 2017 Author Posted July 17, 2017 If you've been using this drive for years, it's probably just reached the end of its life. On the extreme low end, you'll get 5 months out of an optical burner before it needs replacing. On the high end, 18 months to 2 years. If you really have had a drive that has lasted for years with relatively few issues, consider yourself pretty lucky. I'd peg it down to its age. I ordered it in April of 2014, and have been using it ever since. I've never heard of drives needing to be replaced that quickly. It's always been my understanding that they're supposed to last a decade or longer. Does it relate to how often they are used or some other variable?
dbminter Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 Oh, they won't even last half a decade. Maybe in the old days, CD drives were rated at a decade, but I've never seen an optical burner that lasted even last half a decade. I've only ever had 2 Blu-Ray burners that came close to 2 years. It's a combination of moving parts and the heat generated by the drive when in use. It has moving parts, so it's going to eventually wear out. But, before the moving parts will ever wear out, the drive will just "burn up." The heat of electricity constantly going through it and the heat of the burning laser simply generates temperatures that will wear out a drive faster. So, how often the drive is used will be a factor, yes. If they're used rarely, then, maybe you might get a few years out of a drive. I have 15 years of optical drive purchases. These have been my experiences. For instance, the last burner replacement I had to do was my LG BD burner because it stopped writing to DVD+R DL after 5 months.
hbenthow Posted July 17, 2017 Author Posted July 17, 2017 Oh, they won't even last half a decade. Maybe in the old days, CD drives were rated at a decade, but I've never seen an optical burner that lasted even last half a decade. I've only ever had 2 Blu-Ray burners that came close to 2 years. It's a combination of moving parts and the heat generated by the drive when in use. It has moving parts, so it's going to eventually wear out. But, before the moving parts will ever wear out, the drive will just "burn up." The heat of electricity constantly going through it and the heat of the burning laser simply generates temperatures that will wear out a drive faster. So, how often the drive is used will be a factor, yes. If they're used rarely, then, maybe you might get a few years out of a drive. I have 15 years of optical drive purchases. These have been my experiences. For instance, the last burner replacement I had to do was my LG BD burner because it stopped writing to DVD+R DL after 5 months. If I do wind up buying a replacement soon, do you think that an LG WH16NS40 (not to be confused with the older model WH14NS40, which is what I have) would be a good choice? Do you know if it tends to provide high-quality burns on DVDs and Blu-rays?
dbminter Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 The only reason I have an LG WH16NS40 is because the latest firmwares for Pioneer's BDR-209M are borked for Ritek 8x DVD+RW's. I would keep getting the Pioneers, but the last one of these I had was borked right out of the box. Failed to write to BD-R's that my 2nd 209, which I still have, would. And the 3rd Pioneer I had, before that borked one, died on BD-R after 7 months. So, I have begun to question the quality of Pioneer drives over the last few years. Especially since I have my first 2 and they're still working after 2 years except for a design flaw in the model. After a few months, the Eject button don't work when first pressed. Pressing it a 2nd time works. A manual Eject command from ImgBurn does the same thing, but the forced Eject on Writes before Verifies always works. The LG WH16NS40 has its own killers. It does not write to dual layer BD and BD-RE at ALL correctly. Verify will fail 9 times out of 10 at the layer change. Plus, when you format BD-RE SL as a giant floppy in Windows/File Explorer, it writes to these discs at half the rate of speed of the Pioneer. Those are you two best options, and neither of them is great. I have one of each because of the problems both represent. I would try another Pioneer and simply use the downgrade utility for the firmware if you find it can't burn your DVD+RW correctly. The LG, otherwise, produces quality burns with quality Verbatim media. However, the last WH16NS40 I had needed replacing after 5 months because though it continued to write to everything else fine, it died on writing DVD+R DL. Always failed Verify at the layer change.
hbenthow Posted July 17, 2017 Author Posted July 17, 2017 Those are you two best options, and neither of them is great. I have one of each because of the problems both represent. I would try another Pioneer and simply use the downgrade utility for the firmware if you find it can't burn your DVD+RW correctly. What about the LG WH14NS40 (the one that I currently have)? Does it write to double-layer BD-Rs correctly? I've never written to a double-layer disc (either DVD or Blu-ray) but was considering getting some double-layer BD-Rs soon. If it does, then would it be better to just get another WH14NS40 rather than upgrade to a WH16NS40?
dbminter Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 I don't know for sure if I ever had the WH14NS40, although I think I had one before years ago as my first LG BD burner. Back then, I am pretty sure I never tried burning a DL BD media before. I think I never started it until I got a Pioneer. And I've never tried BD-R DL. Lots of people have reported lots of failures here with BD-R DL media, even Verbatim. I've only ever burned Verbatim BD-RE DL.
hbenthow Posted July 17, 2017 Author Posted July 17, 2017 I don't know for sure if I ever had the WH14NS40, although I think I had one before years ago as my first LG BD burner. Back then, I am pretty sure I never tried burning a DL BD media before. I think I never started it until I got a Pioneer. And I've never tried BD-R DL. Lots of people have reported lots of failures here with BD-R DL media, even Verbatim. I've only ever burned Verbatim BD-RE DL. I only ever buy Panasonic BD-Rs (and Verbatim DVD-Rs). I've never burned any sort of double-layer discs whatsoever, though. Do you know if anyone has had success burning double-layer BD-Rs with the WH16NS40 (the newer model that you have)? Could it be that the failures you experienced were a fluke rather than the rule?
dbminter Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 What is the Disc ID of the Panasonic BD-R's? Panasonic may have put their name of them, but they may not have necessarily made them. Put one in a drive, open ImgBurn in Write mode, and check the Disc ID in the pane of information on the right hand side. For instance, Verbatim puts its name on its media, but they farm out to Mitsubishi for their good DataLife Plus stuff and to CMC for their Life Series junk as well as their BD-RE, even though their BD-R and BD-RE DL are quality Verbatim discs. They used to make quality BD-RE but now they farm out to CMC I've had 3 of the WH16NS40's. I tested all 3 of them when I got them for the first time. They all did the same thing, and they will continue doing the same thing until LG updates the firmware. However, LG hasn't updated the firmware for this drive in 2 years. As for success with BD-R DL, I can only recall the failures I've seen with Verbatim discs. I don't even know what hardware they were using. There was worry that the quality of the Verbatim BD-R DL might have dropped. I wouldn't have known as I have zero experience with any brand's BD-R DL.
hbenthow Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 What is the Disc ID of the Panasonic BD-R's? Panasonic may have put their name of them, but they may not have necessarily made them. Put one in a drive, open ImgBurn in Write mode, and check the Disc ID in the pane of information on the right hand side. For instance, Verbatim puts its name on its media, but they farm out to Mitsubishi for their good DataLife Plus stuff and to CMC for their Life Series junk as well as their BD-RE, even though their BD-R and BD-RE DL are quality Verbatim discs. They used to make quality BD-RE but now they farm out to CMC I checked the disc ID as you said, and it is MEI-T02-001. I've had 3 of the WH16NS40's. I tested all 3 of them when I got them for the first time. They all did the same thing, and they will continue doing the same thing until LG updates the firmware. However, LG hasn't updated the firmware for this drive in 2 years. Very disappointing. As for success with BD-R DL, I can only recall the failures I've seen with Verbatim discs. I don't even know what hardware they were using. There was worry that the quality of the Verbatim BD-R DL might have dropped. I wouldn't have known as I have zero experience with any brand's BD-R DL. So you don't know for certain whether it could be an issue that only affects certain brands of media?
dbminter Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 MEI is the mark that Panasonic made them. Panasonic made quality DVD-R that I used for the first time in 2002 back when they were $15 each. Panasonic also makes the quality BD-RE SL I use instead of Verbatim's cheap ass CMC ones. Yeah, I don't remember what the blanks were in question in the past posts except that some of the complaints were using Verbatim. And it was really confusing as, for DL DVD media, Verbatim MKM was really the only high quality choice out there. So, it was a little baffling that people were getting all these errors on them. However, I never tested them in my Pioneer, which has a high rate of success with media... well, when you don't use the current firmware for DVD+RW.
hbenthow Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 However, I never tested them in my Pioneer, which has a high rate of success with media... well, when you don't use the current firmware for DVD+RW. Would the firmware make a difference for someone (such as me) who never uses rewritable discs?
dbminter Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 If you never use rewritable discs, it may not matter. After I discovered 1.34 was borked for 8x Ritek DVD+RW, I stopped testing. I can't say for certain the firmware isn't borked for anything else, though. And it may only be on Ritek 8x DVD+RW. Or it may be on all DVD+RW. Or all rewritable discs. It's hard to say. Sort of like the ASUS internal I returned. I tested 2 copies of the model and it did this on both, so it's a design flaw. It destroyed 8x Ritek DVD+RW and Verbatim BD-RE DL. It supports rewritable media, but destroys them on attempting to write to them! So, what's the point of that? It's a shame because my ASUS USB drive performs flawlessly. Anyway, it turned me off to all future ASUS products. I can say the 1.33 firmware is fine. So, if you get a Pioneer with 1.34 firmware, you can always downgrade to 1.33 with a little work. If the drive isn't 1.34 firmware, you can always just get 1.33 and install that only. Or go for 1.34 and hope you have results.
hbenthow Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) So, for what I need (burning CDs, single-layers DVD-Rs, maybe double-layer DVD-Rs eventually, single-layer BD-Rs, and double-layer BD-Rs), the Pioneer would be more reliable than the LG, based on your experience? By the way, is the Pioneer riplocked? I can say the 1.33 firmware is fine. So, if you get a Pioneer with 1.34 firmware, you can always downgrade to 1.33 with a little work. If the drive isn't 1.34 firmware, you can always just get 1.33 and install that only. Or go for 1.34 and hope you have results. Is downgrading firmware risky? Also, I'm a bit confused about which Pioneer model is which. There are at least two with similar names. Is the one that you have? https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-Electronics-Internal-Blu-Ray-BDR-2209/dp/B00GD792US/ Or it this one? https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-Electronics-Internal-Blu-Ray-BDR-209DBK/dp/B00H2GTXKS/ Is there any significant difference between the two? Edited July 18, 2017 by hbenthow
dbminter Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 I'd go with the Pioneer over the LG, but be sure to run tests on all media you're going to use with it to make sure the firmware works and you didn't get a low quality drive. As far as I know, the Pioneer is not Riplocked. I've copied many DVD's I've made with my Panasonic standalone DVD recorder and they copied in under 5 minutes, which makes me think the drive isn't Riplocked. However, I don't know if Riplock is only "kicked in" with CSS protected DVD Video discs. The Pioneer is definitely a better reader than the LG is. I don't recommend LG's for reading drives because I've encountered many discs where I tried to read in an LG but it wouldn't read certain sectors that the Pioneer would. However, I just recently encountered a DVD+RW where the Pioneer wouldn't read it but the LG would. Go figure. I've downgraded firmware 3 times on my Pioneers without issue. It's relatively risk free, but ANY firmware update, even updating with official firmware, has a potential risk any time. The most difficult aspect is extracting the actual firmware from Pioneer's .EXE with 7Zip. And you have to download a separate utility to install the regressed firmware. And it's command line driven, so you have to be relatively okay with Command Prompt and entering arguments into command line executables. There are 2 significant differences between the two drives. The 2209 model is the BDXL model. It writes to triple layer BD media and to M-Disc media. I've never burned any triple layer BD media but I have burned a handful of M-Disc BD media. If you're not interested in those functions, and I can live without them, then it's not necessarily worth it. I've never burned triple layer media because the moment you start adding layers, you get more potential problems writing and Verifying. M-Disc is a special type of media that costs more but will last a LOT longer than regular media. It's archival quality media. Think of it as using a laser but chiseling bits in stone and you can see why it lasts longer. M-Disc DVD media is readable in any DVD drive or player that supports reading DVD+R. As for BD, I don't know how well BD M-Disc works if you try to make a BD Video disc with it and it being playable in a standalone DVD player. I've received a few M-Disc media with Pioneer drives I've bought as a freebie and I always made backups of important data to the BD M-Disc. The 209 is relatively the same as the 2209 except it lacks the BDXL and M-Disc support. Now, both the 2209 and 209 have the same latest firmware revision number: 1.34. So, I don't know if the 209 1.34 is borked with 8x Ritek DVD+RW or not. The next drive I need, I'm going to try the 209 since I've never tried that before. The 1.34 firmware may be fine, but I don't know if it will work for Ritek 8x DVD+RW. But, I should be able to downgrade the firmware on it as I have with 3 of the 2209's.
hbenthow Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 I'd go with the Pioneer over the LG, but be sure to run tests on all media you're going to use with it to make sure the firmware works and you didn't get a low quality drive. By tests, do you mean just attempting to burn the discs to see if they work, or something more detailed (like some sort of scan)? There are 2 significant differences between the two drives. The 2209 model is the BDXL model. It writes to triple layer BD media and to M-Disc media. I've never burned any triple layer BD media but I have burned a handful of M-Disc BD media. If you're not interested in those functions, and I can live without them, then it's not necessarily worth it. I've never burned triple layer media because the moment you start adding layers, you get more potential problems writing and Verifying. M-Disc is a special type of media that costs more but will last a LOT longer than regular media. It's archival quality media. Think of it as using a laser but chiseling bits in stone and you can see why it lasts longer. M-Disc DVD media is readable in any DVD drive or player that supports reading DVD+R. As for BD, I don't know how well BD M-Disc works if you try to make a BD Video disc with it and it being playable in a standalone DVD player. I've received a few M-Disc media with Pioneer drives I've bought as a freebie and I always made backups of important data to the BD M-Disc. M-Disc sounds very promising, so the one that has it sounds like the better of the two.
dbminter Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 By testing, I mean take a blank of every media you intend to burn with the drive, create an image to test it with, preferably an image that nearly fills the disc, and burn those images to the blanks. Just test if they finish Writes without error and finish Verfiies without error. Writes aren't as important as Verifies as far as I'm concerned. Writes will often times pass but will fail on Verifies of those Writes. You can, of course, perform disc scans, attempt to read the data back to image files, test playing movie discs on a stand alone player, etc. if you want to. I don't generally go that far. I just mostly care that they pass Verifies. And, to an extent, Writes, because one must be done before the other can be, of course. Be aware that M-Discs cost about 5 times as much as standard media. However, it can be worth the cost if you're really concerned about obtaining archival quality media. For instance, a DVD+R can cost between 50 cents and a dollar. An M-Disc DVD+R will set you back about $5. So, if you're willing to invest in them, by all means, get the M-Disc drive. You may find yourself using them more than I do. I'm just mostly concerned about the decreasing quality of my 2209 drives I've gotten. The first one still works, save for the Eject button issue. The 2nd one I still use for reading discs and for writing BD-RE DL and BD-RE SL as giant floppies. The 3rd one I had died after 7 months when it stopped writing BD-R properly. The 4th one was borked right out the box, failing on BD-R. Maybe I just got flukes, but I worry about possible quality decline of Pioneer drives.
hbenthow Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 By testing, I mean take a blank of every media you intend to burn with the drive, create an image to test it with, preferably an image that nearly fills the disc, and burn those images to the blanks. Just test if they finish Writes without error and finish Verfiies without error. Writes aren't as important as Verifies as far as I'm concerned. Writes will often times pass but will fail on Verifies of those Writes. You can, of course, perform disc scans, attempt to read the data back to image files, test playing movie discs on a stand alone player, etc. if you want to. I don't generally go that far. I just mostly care that they pass Verifies. And, to an extent, Writes, because one must be done before the other can be, of course. I see. So more or less just a standard burn and verify from an ISO with no need for complex tests. That should be relatively easy. Have you ever bought protection plans for your burners? Newegg offers some and I was wondering if they are worthwhile.
dbminter Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 I never considered protection plans because I know the instant I'd by one, miraculously, they'd last for all eternity and I'd be out my money. And, most likely, they would give up the ghost the day AFTER the protection plan expires. Yes, I have had that happen before with electronics. The day AFTER. Plus, I'm sure they have some legalese that they can worm their way out of paying you back/replacing your drive, saying it was normal wear and tear or you broke it. And what can you do? The laws were written to protect the major corporation's bucks.
dbminter Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 BTW, the LG WH16NS40 supports writing to M-Disc. The WH14NS40 might as well. Look on the front of the tray. The WH16NS40 has the words M-Disc on the left side. I'd guess if the WH14NS40 supported it, as well, it would also say M-Disc on the front of the tray. However, the Pioneer 2209 supports M-Disc but it doesn't say M-Disc on the front of the drive, anywhere.
hbenthow Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 BTW, the LG WH16NS40 supports writing to M-Disc. The WH14NS40 might as well. Look on the front of the tray. The WH16NS40 has the words M-Disc on the left side. I'd guess if the WH14NS40 supported it, as well, it would also say M-Disc on the front of the tray. However, the Pioneer 2209 supports M-Disc but it doesn't say M-Disc on the front of the drive, anywhere. I just looked at the front of my WH14NS40, and it says M-disc. So it turns out that it does support it as well.
dbminter Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 I had an inkling it did. I think I did have a WH14 at one point. Lasted about a year before it stopped writing to DVD+R DL. I think I found it in an actual brick and mortar store at Best Buy in town. About 3 or 4 years ago.
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