Buffer Recovery

[Racer]

Hi,

I Read in the changelog and can visually see that there are options for Buffer Recovery Thresholds, There are sliders which I might set, but since I cant find anything about what happens if I move them in any direction, I can't learn how to set them. I've searched this forum, I've searched with google and with other search engines for what they do, but found nothing, exept the obvious, that they infact do exist.

 

I have some problems, from time to time, sometimes when using my computer for other stuff and sometimes it just does nothing but burn, and the Device buffer hits 0, the write rate decreases, and the proceedure repeats it self while it slows down the write rate.

 

I Run ImgBurn with the default settings, apart from the Buffer Size which I have set to 256MB instead of the initial value, since I have 2GB of RAM and seldom use more than 1GB. I Burn at 4x speed (anything above that will result in a coaster), and its DVDVIDEO imagefiles, I use Verbatim (MCC 03RG20) DVDs, always.

 

I have a NEC 3500, with the latest 2.1B Firmware, modded for RPC1 and riplock, the issue was just the same with the 2.1A firmware from TheDangerousBrothers.

Its an AMD 3000+ nForce 4 SLi machine, with 2GB RAM, and a non system drive on which the imagefile resides, a SATA2 drive from Seagate, I run XP x64 Edition.

I've tried defrag, no change, file not fragmented.

 

Could someone please instruct me on what the settings under Buffer Recovery Thresholds will affect, and how I need to set the in order for ImgBurn to use its Buffer prior to using the Device Buffer, I also think that it really should be able to burn Faster than 4x, and that it always should be able to give a good result at 4x speed, s? please instruct me.

 

These are the settings, all with default values right now:

Main

Device

Avg. Disk q

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited January 18, 2007 by Racer

[LIGHTNING UK!]

The device buffer is the drives internal buffer, it's not something ImgBurn uses.

 

ImgBurn uses the data in the other buffer and send it directly to the drive, which then fills the device buffer and starts burning.

 

If the ImgBurn buffer is full and the device one keeps messing up, there's not a setting in ImgBurn that will help you.

 

If you could get us an IBG file or screenshot of the graph data displayed in DVDInfoPro, we might be able to spot weird things.

[Racer]

But how do I set the Buffer recovery so that it will at least try to read from the buffer that I can configure?

 

I mean, should it not under all circumstances first read from the buffer, and then from the device buffer, or what is the point in having a buffer in the application if it aint used?

 

I used to run WinOnCD in the good old days (mid to end 1990s until and a few more years), which did the job the correct way, 1, utilize application buffer and 2, utilize drive buffer, it didn't matter what I loaded, the application buffer had to be real low or empty before it touched the drive buffer. Unfortunatly Roxio has totally screwed that program up, leaving it in a state where it seems to be targeted for small children.

 

So I assumed that ImgBurn worked the same way, hence the ability to increase the application buffer to 256MB, if it aint used, then there surely is no reason to have a buffer at all.

Edited January 18, 2007 by Racer

[LIGHTNING UK!]

I don't think you're getting it.

 

ImgBurn ALWAYS reads from the 'Buffer'. If the 'Device Buffer' empties, it's because the program can't send data quickly enough to the drive and so the drive empties it's own buffer (the 'Device Buffer'). That's down to your OS as a whole.

 

The status of the 'Device Buffer' is simply queried (i.e. how full / empty it is) - this is a single command send to the drive. The drive then fills out the values (available / total) and sends it back. The drives normally only have a 2mb (or 8mb if you're lucky) internal buffer so it's not as if it lasts long. Even at 1x, that's not even 2 seconds worth (taking it that 1x is ~1.3mb/s).

[zacoz]

To state it a different way, ImgBurn reads data from HD into it's buffer, from where it's passed along to the the drive buffer, where it's then burnt to the disc - all done on a FIFO (first in first out) basis.

 

Hard Drive --> ImgBurn Buffer --> Device Buffer --> Disc

 

Or think of it as a series of buckets that are filled from the top but drain out at the bottom into the next bucket. So as the device buffer empties into the Disc, the ImgBurn Buffer tops up the Device Buffer again. It's not the overflow from the device buffer that goes to the Disc.

 

|		   |
|		   |  (Hard Drive)
--------| |--
	| |

 |				|
 |				|  (ImgBurn Buffer)
 |				|
 |				|
 ---------| |------
	   | |

   |		   |
   |		   |  (Device Buffer)
   --------| |--
		   | |

		   DISC

Hopefully this doesn't make it more confusing

[Racer]

But thats the problem, The application buffer stays at 100% (256MB) while the device buffer takes the hit for launching an application, or anything that in any way affects the computer, or in some cases, without doing anything at all.

 

And its not one time it has happened, it can happen any time, and without touching the application buffer, so thats my problem, that it refuses to give me those extra seconds the 256MB should give (256/6(approx MB/s at 4x)= roughly 40 seconds), and therefor my question, how do I tweak the buffer recovery thresholds so that it uses the application buffer BEFORE the device buffer?

 

Having to shut down screensavers, and not using the computer at all, and still just hoping to get a valid disc while burning is something I haven't done for a long time, like in the early days of cdrecorders, since I burn at 4x and use brand quality media, as stated above, I really can't see why this happens.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Racer

[LIGHTNING UK!]

As mentioned in a previous post, there must be some issue with sending data to the drive then - and it's out of ImgBurn's hands.

 

Check your filter drivers using the free tool from http://www.bustrace.com and remove any rubbish you find.

 

You can put it's info in the clipboard and paste it on here if you like, then we'll help point out the bad ones (if there are any).

 

You really don't need a 256MB buffer, as you've seen, normally when there are problems it's the 'software buffer -> drive' communication that suffers, not 'hdd -> software buffer'. The default values work best, that's why they're default! I have 4GB of RAM and I still only use a 20MB one (or 40MB in the newer version of ImgBurn - as yet unreleased).

 

Again, if you can get us a DVDInfoPro screenshot of the 'ImgBurn Graph Data' it would help use to see what you're seeing. NEC drives perform WOPC as they burn so I'd expect the device buffer to drop to 0 every now and then anyway.

[Racer]

Hi,

So its the NEC drive that is a piece of CRAP?, Would it help to get another drive, if so which one/s? are good?

 

I will add IBG for two discs that had problems, that I can remember;

IBG.zip

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------------

Filter Driver Load Order http://www.bustrace.com

----------------------------------------------------

 

Upper Class Filter: SiRemFil

Upper Device Filter: redbook

Device Object: _NEC DVD_RW ND-3500AG

Lower Class Filter: PxHlpa64

Lower Device Filter: imapi

 

Driver Name: siremfil.sys

File Location: c:\windows\system32\drivers

File Description: Filter driver for Silicon Image SATALink controllers.

File Version: 1, 1, 6, 0 [1.1.6.0]

Product Name:

Product Version: 1, 0, 0, 0 [1.0.0.0]

Company Name: Silicon Image, Inc.

 

Driver Name: redbook.sys

File Location: c:\windows\system32\drivers

File Description: Redbook Audio Filter Driver

File Version: 5.2.3790.1830 (srv03_sp1_rtm.050324-1447) [5.2.3790.1830]

Product Name: Microsoft? Windows? Operating System

Product Version: 5.2.3790.1830 [5.2.3790.1830]

Company Name: Microsoft Corporation

 

Driver Name: pxhlpa64.sys

File Location: c:\windows\system32\drivers

File Description: Px Engine Device Driver for 64-bit Windows

File Version: 2.03.32a [2.3.32.0]

Product Name: PxHelp64

Product Version: [2.0.0.0]

Company Name: Sonic Solutions

 

Driver Name: imapi.sys

File Location: c:\windows\system32\drivers

File Description: IMAPI Kernel Driver

File Version: 5.2.3790.1830 (srv03_sp1_rtm.050324-1447) [5.2.3790.1830]

Product Name: Microsoft? Windows? Operating System

Product Version: 5.2.3790.1830 [5.2.3790.1830]

Company Name: Microsoft Corporation

[LIGHTNING UK!]

If you look at the top blue line you'll see that your CPU %usage was at 100% whenever the device buffer goes mad. So the two are linked, you just need to find out what's causing it.

 

Next time it does it, bring up task manager and find which process is using all the CPU time.

 

As for filter drivers, you should remove this one: siremfil.sys

 

It's known to cause problems.

[Racer]

The CPU usage is always 100%, I run Folding At Home, a CPU eating service that runs at lowest possible priority, so everything gets CPU power before that one does. http://folding.stanford.edu/, but yes it seems like you have a point in those burns, for some reason Folding at home is not running, and the CPU isn't 100% all the time, but still cant I tweak ImgBurn so that it gets priority first? I know it already runs as high prioriy process, but I still think that ImgBurn should empty its application buffer prior to even go near the device buffer.

 

I've burned some discs today, and all of those have been 100% correct, but just sometimes it goes wrong.

 

How do I remove that one without actually uninstalling the hardware (Silicon Image sata2 controller) that the driver is for, its not for that cdrom so I guess there is a way to disable it for this device?

[LIGHTNING UK!]

DOH! Yes, the 'Buffer' should empty before the 'Device Buffer' but it doesn't work like that.

 

The 'Device Buffer' is inside the actual drive (obviously) and the 'Buffer' is in your systems memory (or part of the swap file). I don't write to the 'Device Buffer', I send data to the drive... IT controls the device buffer. If there's a problem getting data from the 'Buffer' to the 'Device Buffer' - i.e. the machine is busy or the I/O subsystem is busy with other things - the 'Device Buffer' will empty out. There's not a change I could make to ImgBurn to prevent that, it's out of my control. Blame your system as a whole.

 

High priority should be enough, you wouldn't want it any higher than that really.

 

To remove that filter driver try browsing to the following key in regedit:

 

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4D36E965-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\

 

Look in the upper/lowerfilters values, you should see it listed. Simply delete it and then reboot.

[Racer]

Ok, this things are new to me, In the good old days before shit like burnproof was invented I was able to know that a disc that I burned worked or didn't work, now I have to hope that the drive buffer didn't get empty during burns, I'd rather see a failed burn when it happens.

 

So, then only two questions remain, will it help to change the drive to another brand?

 

Would it be possible to get a feature in ImgBurn where it logs to screen the times the device buffer got emptied? If it does it means not playable if its a movie with my drive.

 

Is it possible to shut off the device buffer altogether? And make the program run with only the application buffer?

 

I think ImgBurn is an awesome application, despite some minor stuff that don't work as it did ages ago, and most burning programs don't, which I got a hard time understanding.

[polopony]

"Ok, this things are new to me, In the good old days before shit like burnproof was invented I was able to know that a disc that I burned worked or didn't work, now I have to hope that the drive buffer didn't get empty during burns, I'd rather see a failed burn when it happens."

 

I think you're worrying too much ,burnproof is a great feature, before it if the buffers emptied then the disc was garbage, with burnproof the burn is paused untill the buffers recover it starts to burn again and you get a playable disc.Ive tried to burn faster than my computer could handle and the buffers went mad they were filling and emptying every couple of seconds and I still had a perfect dvd

 

I also have an NEC 3500 and its a workhorse it must have over 1000 burns on it by now and I've never had a problem with it .

There is a newer firmware available for that drive has been for a good while its 2.1B

changing your drive isn't going to make a difference as they are all pretty much the same buffer wise but they are so cheap these days if you do change it out you wont feel the pinch in your wallet

[LIGHTNING UK!]

No you can't disable the drives buffer. It wouldn't achieve anything even if you could!

 

The drive doesn't have direct access to the system (program) buffer so basically it would ONLY have the data being sent to it at that second to work with - at least when the drive has some data in it's cache, it has a bit of time to get over any data streaming issues.

 

As polopony said, burnproof protects you from longer streaming interruptions anyway. It will just 'pause' the burn until the drive's internal cache ('Device Buffer') is full again, at which point it'll resume burning.

There's shouldn't be any noticable pause when reading back the disc over the areas where burning was paused.

 

ImgBurn actually has a pause button you can use during burning if you need to. I've left mine paused for ages before (during testing) and the disc still came out perfectly fine.

 

It's very hard to log when the buffer empties and normally a buffer underrun would have occurred... ok you might think it's easy, just look at when it reaches 0% - but as I mentioned earlier, some drives do that on purpose when they're performing WOPC stuff (this is where the drive checks the quality of the burn as it goes along).

 

I think ImgBurn is an awesome application, despite some minor stuff that don't work as it did ages ago, and most burning programs don't, which I got a hard time understanding.

 

What exactly do you mean by that?

 

I try hard to never change the basics of how the program works... what are you seeing that's different?

 

 

 

The way I see it, you need to stop whatever's messing up during your burns and causing your machine to run at 100% cpu. It doesn't matter what it is or how harmless you think it is, stop it running!

[Racer]

Ok, I think I got to explain a little,

 

One, Since my drive produces COASTERS every single time it burns dvdvideo images to dvdrs if the device buffer gets empty, I don't like the Burnproof, its just pure shit, it slows the drive down, but the damage is already done. so it's not working. If I burn datadiscs then its ok, for those burnproof works.

 

Back in the stoneage, there was this AWESOME application called WinOnCd made by CeQuadrat. It was the time before burnproof, but that did not matter, as long as there were data left in the application buffer the dics would come out perfect, and if had to go down on the drive buffer, then it was just a matter of praying, since 0 device buffer meant COASTER. But that almost never ever happened, unless I did some real intence work at the same time. And if it failed and the burn went to COASTER WinOnCd said so, by indicating that the burn infact had failed. (Which some of the others really didn't, one had to verify the whole disc with those programs and still there could be defective files that it didn't say anything about (Easy CD Creator was one of those, or more popular called Easy Coaster Creator)).

 

And, I do have the same problem as I had back in the good old days, I can burn a disc, verify it, and it can say that it is OK, but when I try to play it on my stand alone DVD player, then it has parts that cant be read. Thats why I say that Burn Proof is shit, I'd rather know that I got a COASTER than discover it later.

 

Yes, the 2.1B firmware seems alot better 30+ discs with no error, and I hope that it will infact stay that way, better burns, with less incidents, so perhaps it is now working, I know it has been out for a while but since I really hate RPCII (Got both R1 and R2 movies) I have to wait for someone to hack the firmware for me.

 

Is there a drive on which the Burn Proof actually work as it should, I'm not sure NEC is a Good drive manufacturer, I was more of a Yamaha and Plextor buyer in the earler ages, perhaps I should just throw the NEC out for the latest Plextor.

 

Or perhaps, I might be able to disable the feature altogether? Burn Proof I mean. If I deselect Burn Proof in the Write settings of ImgBurn, will it then burn the disc with burn proof off, or what will happen?

Edited January 21, 2007 by Racer

[polopony]

burn proof has always worked for me so I really dont know why you dislike it so much its a positive thing and with it enabled you dont make coasters when and if the burffers empty .

 

If you hate Burnproof so much then go Tools ,Settings ,Write and remove the check from "enable burnproof".Other than checking the boxes that open the tray after read ,write and verify all my settings are default IMGburn works best with defaults

 

Nec makes a very good drive in my opinion and my 3500 just makes great burns time after time I haven't bought another newer one because I'm not going to fix whats not broken I also have a 2500 and it works perfectly also and a Sony dru 510A my first burner and it also turns out beautifull burns .Its a real Sony when they were actually making their own drives Lite ON makes drives for them now that they rebadge

 

 

Its important to keep your firmware up to date so that it supports the latest media codes and the other little tweaks they make with the newer versions

 

the discs that you say burn ok and can't be read with your player I dont believe is the fault of burnproof ,its usually down to media ,overcompression or a player that might be old enough to not support some of the formats ,its suggested that you booktype your dvd's to dvd-rom for compatibility but the 3500 wont support booktyping SL + meddia although you can use a cracked firmware which will support it www.liggydee.cdfreaks.com

 

 

If you can burn an ISO and then verify it OK then thats checking the burned disc against the ISO on your hard drive ,you should take note of where on the burned discs you have a problem and then Download Daemon tools ,its a virtual drive which you can mount the ISO in and watch it and see if the errors are in the ISO itself

[dontasciime]

Would have thought regarding burnproof, Data is Data and burnproof cannot differentiate

[lfcrule1972]

I have never had a problem with Burnproof on countless burns and NEC, BenQ and now a Pioneer drive..... As the boss said I think the issue here is CPU at 100% during the burns.........

[Racer]

Thats kind of the odd thing for me, I've always used Verbatim media, and just some times tried other brands, and in all circumstances, dvd video dics gives the stand alone player a hard time if the drive buffer gets emptied. Its not just my stand alone player but others also, I've tried at several friends homes and all show the same sympthoms, a burn of a dvdvideo disc that which gets an empty drive buffer means Coaster or at least errors on disc in form of skipped frames, and the like. If I burn the same disc 2 times, one time where it empties the buffer, and one where it doesn't then one disc will perform perfectly while the other will have errors.

 

Yeah, I use a modded firmware, this time the Liggy 2.1B, previously I've been using TDB versions, my stand alone player cant handle dvd+r discs so I need them to be dvd-rom, but I use dvd-r media right now which works Verbatim (MCC 03RG20) (DVD-R 16x), which I burn at 4x anything higher means Coaster.

 

I'm gonna try to see if stuff actually work better with the new firmware, gonna burn a disc at max speed, and let burn proof do its work, just to see if it works better with the 2.1B-Liggy than the old 2.1A-TDB, will return with results after having watched thru the movie.

[polopony]

[byblo]

I have the same trouble than you (device buffer empty when the program's buffer still full...), excepted that it happen only a few time when burning (2-5 times) But when I see your ibg files, I understand that there is nothing to compare...

 

I have a nec 2500a, asus a8n-sli (nf4), winxp 32bit, media are phillips 16x dvd+r and 60% humidity in my piece

 

If I find some fix, I'll post it here. Good luck.

Edited January 23, 2007 by byblo

[lfcrule1972]

Long movie........

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Don't forget, it's normal for the device buffer to empty out when the drives perform WOPC type functions.

 

Mine do it too.... don't worry about it too much!

[Racer]

Hi, yeah, some other stuff got in the way,

It seems like it works,

It works alot better than previously anyway, no problems on my equipment at all.

 

I'm gonna try with friends equipment also, but it seems like the Firmware upgrade might have done the trick, the device buffer didn't show up at all during the burn, is that normal, I see it happen sometimes, its like it dont care to read the buffer status until it changes next time or something.

 

Yeah, My dvdplayer is old, like from the year 2000, but it's still a good player when it comes to playback quality (image, sound).

Edited January 24, 2007 by Racer

[LIGHTNING UK!]

No, the device buffer should always work. It's updated about 4 or 5 times per second and will always display the value returned by the drive.