OKAY... I've got ANOTHER one...

[dbminter]

Yeah, tried that one already. Changed both to Y and Z. Both changed to Y and Z. On reboot, though, only the 2nd drive retained its letter, Z. The first changed back to H.

[Grain]

How warm are you running the flux capacitor?

 

Sincerely

Shi T. Disturber

[Pain_Man]

Minty & NTFS don't get along. I've never had any of the problems he's had with it. Ironically, I've also run it on 4 machines (that I set up) and a fifth (a gift from the wife's firm).

 

Didn't realize all those hassles with NTFS,

[Pain_Man]

You aren't seriously suggesting he run the initiator sequence above 1.21 gigawatts?!?! You know that in 99.07462% of the time, the Dilithium crystals fuse!

 

(Unless, of course, you're using Centauri Trilithium crystals...then you can hit 1.371 gigawatts with no problem...)

 

And to think that the flux capacitor was invented by a Klingon disguised as a human! (Wasn't he later assassinated by a Cylon & Narn?)

 

(Sorry, minty, couldn't resist...compulsion...to...be...wiseass...overwhelming...) :&

 

How warm are you running the flux capacitor?

 

Sincerely

Shi T. Disturber

Edited August 19, 2006 by Pain_Man

[dbminter]

Technically, Lloyd invented an entirely new unit of measurement, the jigawatt. Most likely, he just didn't know the word correctly from the script.

 

 

I take it someone is watching TBS.

[chewy]

db,

you fat is hosed

[spinningwheel]

db;

 

Just how the hell do you come up with this shit? I try to get some of the stuff you write about to happen...and I can't...WTF?????

[kevdriver]

he's mad I tell you Spinner.......... MAD ! I think the daleks kidnapped the real db, and left this clone in his place to drive us all batty................

[dbminter]

db,

you fat is hosed

 

 

That IS possible. But, I can't fix it if it is. SCANDISK in DOS did detect mismatching FAT's when a scan of C: was run. I replaced the first with the 2nd. BUT, the strange thing is, Windows SCANDISK and Norton Disk Doctor never detected the problem in Windows. And, the problem happens with either FAT as the main one. And, if the FAT is hosed, why does it only affect the DVD drives?

 

 

Whatever is causing it seems to go hand in glove with another problem of mine I reported on in the past. At one point, all DVD drives stopped returning the Manufacturer ID's on CD's only. DVD's were fine. I solved it then by reverting to a drive image where that didn't happen, which was about a month old. Now, with the recurrence of this problem, that problem has returned. So, it has to be an error introduced by a software install or Windows changing a Registry entry itself as it's want to improperly do on startups. I just need to find the offending application, which is most likely the culprint. 90% of the fuckers out there never get it right. I am leaning towards one in particular. The strange thing is, it only manifests itself when ImgBurn is installed. Alcohol by itself was fine. ImgBurn by itself was fine. I need to thoroughly test more, since that test was last run months ago. And, given the changes in Alcohol, Daemon Tools, and that SPTDI or whatever the fuck driver is called that were added recently, who knows?

[dbminter]

Also, DVDInfo doesn't seem to detect CD-RW for erasing. It will return that the disc type is a CD-RW but, in the erase dialog, it says a DVD-RW is there and won't erase the disc. Because it's expecting a DVD-RW.

[dbminter]

db;

 

Just how the hell do you come up with this shit? I try to get some of the stuff you write about to happen...and I can't...WTF?????

 

 

Yes, one of the few reasons I will accept there may be a god. No one can fathom the existence of those like us because if a god exists, he/she/it/they (Notice I purposefully placed the she and it sounds next to each other. For a good reason. ) are petulant little relativists, lying out of both sides of the mouth and the ass. You can't make sense out of it because there IS none. Just guided action for the sake of its own amusement. Rewards some and punishes others without rhyme, because when you're omnipotent and onyourass, you get bored. God's in his Heaven, all is right with the world, which is the reason why God is dead, and so is Nietzsche.

[spinningwheel]

db;

 

Just how the hell do you come up with this shit? I try to get some of the stuff you write about to happen...and I can't...WTF?????

 

 

Yes, one of the few reasons I will accept there may be a god. No one can fathom the existence of those like us because if a god exists, he/she/it/they (Notice I purposefully placed the she and it sounds next to each other. For a good reason. ) are petulant little relativists, lying out of both sides of the mouth and the ass. You can't make sense out of it because there IS none. Just guided action for the sake of its own amusement. Rewards some and punishes others without rhyme, because when you're omnipotent and onyourass, you get bored. God's in his Heaven, all is right with the world, which is the reason why God is dead, and so is Nietzsche.

[dbminter]

Well, the drives suddenly losing their ability to read CD-RW manufacturer ID's does not appear to be directly related to the issue. I have it now and the drives are NOT swapping their letters around.

 

 

So, anyone have any FUCKING idea what could cause THIS? Why TWO drives should SUDDENLY STOP BEING ABLE TO READ ONE FIELD, CAN READ ALL THE OTHERS, CAN READ THAT FIELD OFF OF DVD'S, AND STILL SOMEHOW NOT MALFUNCTION?!

[dbminter]

Now, this one has me worried...

 

 

After shuffling off all desired data to kept from the partitions on the SATA drive to a USB drive, and barely managing to fit it all, I went in and attacked it from the POV of removing any FAT problems.

 

 

Booted from a CD, ran FDISK /mbr, ran FDISK and deleted all the partitions, created a new C:, formatted it with a quick format, ran FDISK /mbr again, ran FDISK again to delete the partition to create all unallocated space, and rebooted with the system recovery CD in, with all USB devices and PCI cards disconnected, save for the monitor card. Only the absolutely required stuff was connected, save for the 2 DVD drives. Just the PS/2 keyboard, the USB mouse connected by the PS/2 bridge, the monitor card, and the two DVD drives. The recovery CD went to work, XP, the "2002 SP 1" update release that came with the default system was set up... and, to my surprise... the two DVD drives did NOT assume the drive letters D and E. Strangely... utterly in shock... they assumed the drive letters R and S which I ALWAYS used before!

 

 

BUT, I have to set that MANUALLY! The drives SHOULD have assumed the first two available drive letters. With only C:, nothing else, they SHOULD have assumed D and E on a virgin install from the recovery CD. Like they have done before. SOMEHOW, they remembered and saved their drive letters from BEFORE, when I had changed them to R and S in my last Windows setup.

 

 

WHY?

 

 

More importantly... how?

[dbminter]

Well, at least, there's FINALLY something close to an answer that makes SOME sense. Of course, it can always be a trick.

 

 

Seems the cause is in the NEC drive. I only came across it by accident. With a Maxell PHILIPS 4x DVD+RW that would not close session in the NEC. Locked up at 17%. The other drive writes the same image fine to the same disc. So, I swapped around the IDE cables, effectively changing the channels/cables. The drive still wouldn't close the session, so, that rules out the channel and the cable.

 

 

Now, it could always be a bad disc. DVD-RW is fine, thus far. But, I have no other DVD+RW's to play with. However, the swapping around of the cables above leads me to believe it's more than likely the NEC drive. It helps explain, too, the weird behavior from my last swapping of the IDE cables test. Whatever it is is only manifesting itself on closing sessions for DVD+RW. Of course, if that's across the board problem with ALL DVD+RW's to indicate a problem with the drive, I couldn't say. But, it gives me something to start with.

[dbminter]

Well, there was something or some things else also going on. Appears to be related to Alcohol, possibly Daemon Tools, too. BUT, it only seemed... well, it's hard to say. It only showed up if the system had to be powered down before it could be shut down. Then and only then did the drive swapping problems start. Because with the NEC removed, the problem shifted to the Alcohol/Daemon Tools drives. So, who's to say? Something appeared to be written to the Registry settings in this weird case that cannot be undone. No, uninstalling Alcohol/Daemon Tools and reinstalling didn't help. Does it ever?

[dbminter]

The sudden power off is also what appears to be starting the issue where CD-RW's are no longer able to have their manufacturer ID's pulled from them. The two issues ARE releated. Because, just before this case where the 17% Closing issue forced me to physically power off the machine with Windows running, I had read the MID off of this CD-RW in the same drive that it no longer would afterwards. After the drives started swapping letters again. Uninstalling Alcohol/Daemon Tools and reinstalling it STOPS the drive swapping problem, BUT there is still an unfixable issue about pulling the MID's off of CD's only. And this is WITH the NEC disconnected.

 

 

So, hopefully, it's some weird case that only happens when the NEC is attached AND the powering off before shut down occurs. If not, and if it occurs ALL the time this would happen, well, it's screwed. Gotta get a new machine as, by that point, I can't figure it out, OR the problems' on the board. Which means might as well replace the entire thing, since god ain't gonna make it easy at that point. Because, IF there's a problem that always occurs if the machine reboots/powers down before Windows shuts down and it can ONLY be fixed by restoring a known, good backup of Windows BEFORE that happened, well, it's like bending over and asking for it. Like Windows would NEVER just suddenly do that or require it.

[chewy]

Db,

what boot loader did you install long ago and far away?

[dbminter]

None. I perform tests on as absolutely virgin systems as possible to minimize the likelihood of weird shit. I destroyed the partitions off of the drive. Nothing but the fucked up stuff already installed by Windows and the necessarily applications to run/test with are installed.

[dbminter]

Double post; blame Firefox/the forum.

[dbminter]

SHIT! There's no answer! There's NO FUCKING ANSWER!

 

 

The problem is too complicated! It can't be replicated with any kind of certainty! It's completely random! Different things happen to different hardware on different system restores!

 

 

I restored one backup, and, the one connected drive left wouldn't complete writing LeadIn on a DVD-RW that had been burned in the same drive on a different system restore! I restored back to the previous setup that wouldn't complete Closing after 17% on the other drive and the DVD-RW WOULD finish!

 

 

The only thing left is to remove the two IDE cables, replace them, replace both drives, and start reinstalling everything from the bottom up! Then, if it repeats, the problem is on the mobo, one or both of the IDE controllers, and that means replacing the entire machine. Best to do that than fuck around with it. And, gee, I wonder which one I'LL have to do?!

 

 

I tell what I should have chosen, 10 goddamn years ago!

[dbminter]

Wow... I NEVER would guessed the fault was where it was. As it happened, I just randomly stumbled into it and followed on through with the tests from there. But, 10 out of 10 times the problem is repeatable under the known, given conditions. Sit back and grab 8 or 1200 cold ones, folks...

 

 

ZoneAlarm's last AntiSpyware engine update!

 

 

Don't ask me GODDAMN HOW IT COULD EVEN AFFECT THE GIVEN AREA, but, it is the cause. It's either the Anti-spyware engine version 5.0.63.0, DAT file version 01.200608.330 or the AntiSpam version 4.8.1.7217. At least, these are the listed versions post the update that causes the problem. Could be the Driver version 6.5.722.000 perhaps, depending on if it is updated by the anti-spyware update. By the same token, could be the TrueVector security engine version 6.5.722.000.

 

 

If antivirus in ZA is disabled and antispyware is enabled without an update, no problem. If antispyware is updated, problem. If antispyware is disable and antivirus enabled, no problem, even after an update. When ZoneAlarm is uninstalled, the problem goes away.

 

 

Now, I can at least begin to TACKLE the cause! I may need the latest full blown installer versus the one I have, and avoid the update file. Or, if I have one or and if I need AND the update still is problematic, then, the simple solution is disable the fucked up spyware scanner or not use the update until ZoneLabs fixes this. Yet another stupid fucker error they've inserted into a gradually worsening product! They STILL haven't gotten the export/import of saved settings to work right, YET! STILL, it's really the only solution out there, and, it's free, so, some points there.

 

 

I'd be willing to wager some might even be able to... dare I say it... REPRODUCE my problem on their machines! If you're using Alcohol of Daemon Tools virtual drives, then, update if you haven't and have ZoneAlarm installed (The version and flavor MIGHT matter. I started with ZA Internet Security Suite 6.5.722.00 base installer.) and have its antispyware option on. BE WARNED THOUGH! That whatever the problem is appears to be a file installed or replaced by the engine update. Disabling the antispyware option AFTER updating ain't gonna be good enough for us bastards. Nope! Nay, ne'er! If you do decided to give it a toss and it happens, you'll have to uninstall, reinstall, and reconfigure ZoneLabs.

 

 

This also explains the apparently random instances I was having of the problem across different partition backups. Some ZA installed, some didn't. Some I'd install it on BUT not update the engines because I was that "far" enough yet in testing.

 

 

30 days... 30 days to find... THAT was the problem...

[dbminter]

AND... as expected, there was a later installer, and, no, it didn't do a damn bit of good. The problem manifests itself RIGHT from the start, without the modem even being turned on. So, it's in the installer. Something in those engine files relating to the antispyware that gets installed along with everything else. Some common, shared driver of some kind. Like how Nero's inclusion of the DVD-R DL burning engine into their applications broke Nero Recode so it always, incorrectly adds layer breaks randomly into DVD-5 images. Idiots!

 

 

Anyway, the version, etc. numbers in this test case, for anyone's edification are:

 

 

Installer - ZoneLabs ZoneAlarm Internet Security Suite 6.5.737.000 base

zaSuiteSetup_65_737_000_en.exe

 

ZoneAlarm Security Suite version 6.5.737.000

TrueVector security engine version 6.5.737.000

Driver version 6.5.737.000

Anti-virus Vet engine version 11.9.1.000, DAT file version 11.9.9815.000

Anti-spyware engine version 5.0.63.0, DAT file version 01.200605.256

AntiSpam version 4.8.2.7565

 

 

To be fair, this was pre-check for updates. So, let me update it and see that it still fails. Otherwise, I know the routine: keep trying other flavors of ZA to see if there's one without the Antispyware/offending modules included.

[dbminter]

Well, it makes NO sense... but, all current versions of the ZoneAlarm application are royally fucked as far as this issue goes... EXCEPT, strangely, for one. ZA AntiVirus. It's version of the firewall behaves like ZA SHOULD be and has been... save for the versions and updates after 6.5.722. Even the plain, old freebie flavor of ZA is broken. What a bunch of fuckers!

 

 

So, it looks like my choices are stick with 6.5.722 and NEVER update it until they fix it, or go with ZoneAlarm AntiVirus 6.5.737's firewall version

[dbminter]

Well, of goddamn course, as it turns out, the problem is not that fucking simple!

 

 

ZoneAlarm is PART of the problem. This IS a multifacted situation!

 

 

ZA's part is that something they changed in it makes the problem manifest itself earlier AFTER version 6.5.722. But, ZA's not entirely to blame. One of the USB drives is triggering the effect but ONLY when ZA version later than 6.5.722 is installed!

 

 

A few lingering issues were bothering me. That one drive, the first optical drive, the first master on the first controller. Somehow, even when Windows was installed from the recovery CD, it was able to read my mind and set itself to the drive letter that I ALWAYS had to change it to LATER, as opposed to changing to the first available drive letter. HOW could it possibly remember what letter to set it to? Especially when it had never exhibited this before. Even with the partitions all destroyed and Windows installed from the Microsoft CD.

 

 

Something else was bothering me. New drives when attached to the system. Windows didn't pop up the dialog to say what it should do with it. It only started doing this NORMAL behavior, which it should have been doing from the start, WHEN the drive letter problems appeared. So, what starts the drive letters problems?

 

 

Detecting one of the USB drives. When it was turned off and not detected, even with ZA build 737 installed, no drive letter problems. BUT, the moment the drive was turned on, the drive letter problems started. And, will not disappear unless ZA is uninstalled.

 

 

So, the problem is, at least, 2 fold:

 

ZA builds greater than 6.5.722 AND the first USB HD.

 

 

The 2nd one doesn't seem to be the problem, because when that was on and the other was off, it never occurred. However, I will need to test this same case with the 2nd turned off and the 1st turned on. The problem could well be that the system doesn't like more than 1 USB HD connected? However, that doesn't explain how this setup worked for nearly 2 years with no problems, and works before ZA 6.5.733 was released.

 

 

Unfortunately, testing things like the USB port or the USB cable to the first USB HD are not possible because the USB connection to that drive connected with a weird sort of serial to USB cable: USB at the end of the data cable going into the PC, but, the end going into the enclosure is a weird serial type affair, complete with screws. This drive is, after all, from 2002, I think, so, that weird cable prevents proper testing. Plus, given the age of the drive, that also needs to be taken into consideration, too.

 

 

Now, since I've tested this drive connected to other USB ports before, I can rule out the problem of the USB connection on the PC itself. So, the drive's problem could be either internal or the USB cable itself. However, given the unusual design of the USB cable, that cannot be tested easily.

 

 

Still, there are some tests I can do, of course! First, I need to perform the test mentioned earlier: USB HD 1 turned on and USB HD 2 turned off, XP installed from scratch, 1 ATA DVD connected. After that, if we infer at this point the problem is in USB HD 1 (Well, technically, the problem is a dual one: it is in something else AND Zone Alarm post build 722. But, this something else is triggering it.) then what I need to do is a little of my creative madness!

 

 

Connect an ATA HD I have lying around to the open test enclosure from one of the USB DVD drives I had that I keep for such tests. They may be useless for testing external DVD drives because of their ALI bridges causing semaphore timeout errors. BUT, I HAVE tested them for external HD tests and they read and write fine. Detect on the system fine. AND, best of all, it HAS detected, etc. fine on the system WITH USB HD 1 attached in the past. This would help isolate if the problem is in USB HD 1. Because, if this test enclosure and HD work fine, then, I can remove the HD (Maybe...) from the USB HD 1 enclosure and swap them around and see if the problem repeats in the opposite direction. If it does, the problem is the enclosure or the weird USB cable of USB HD 1. Then, the problem is more easily fixed: get a new enclosure.

If the problem repeats but in the SAME direction, then, the problem is in the HD itself inside of USB HD 1.