Verying X/TL and QL BD media

[jardenblack26]

I know very little about X/TL and QL BD media.  I've never burned one before, either, but I was wondering something about Verifying an image burned to one of these kinds of discs.

 

 

With DL DVD+R and BD-RE, which I have burned, Verifying Layer 1 causes the read speed to gradually count down to lower values from the height of the read speed of Layer 0.  This is because the reading goes in the opposite direction on Layer 1 when Verify puts the laser to the end of Layer 0.  But, what happens when Layer 2 or Layer 3 are read?

 

 

Does it gradually increase again on Layer 2 to a maximum read speed?  And, on Layer 3, does it gradually reverse backwards like when changing from Layer 0 to Layer 1?

 

Thanks!

[dbminter]

I asked this very question once.  What happens is the Verify rate gradually increases on Layer 0, gradually decreases on Layer 1, gradually increases on Layer 2, and if there's a Layer 3, gradually decreases again.

[discuser]

The verify read speed will depend on the optical disc drive and media type used in the writing session. For example, I found that with BD-RE media, all of which are limited to a maximum write speed of 2X, can verify throughout the entire disc space at a constant 2X only, even if the drive may normally read 2X or higher with BD-RE media. I've never fully understood the reason for the verify phase linear read speed across the entire disc, as it seems to be a separate read mode compared to the ODD's normal read mode under operating system access which would have varying speed depending on the read position on the disc. Perhaps L-UK might be able to shed some light on why this is the case (I noticed this with Pioneer BD writers and on multiple ODD writing software, including Imgburn). With BD-R write once media, the verify speed behaviour maybe different. It will also depend on whether the ODD will use CAV or CLV modes at the maximum read speed set for the ODD.

BD quad layer media is not currently available standalone, certainly not as far as I'm aware outside of Japan and I've not see it available for the Japan domestic market either. The only way to have access to BDXL-QL media is if you're going to buy an expensive Sony or Panasonic ODA Optical Disc Archival professional-use cartridge, disassemble it and use the BD media (taken out of the cartridge), which is only available as write once for quad layer 128 GB capacity. Most BDXL drives, though in theory should be compatible with BDXL-QL media, do not have internal media tables with any BDXL-QL media either, as far as I know. The realistic capacity supported at this point for BDXL-R and BDXL-RE is up to triple layer 100 GB discs, which have layers numbered layer 0 to layer 2. For a BD drive that reads in CAV constant angular velocity mode, the data transfer rate will rise from the start of layer 0, then peak between the crossover point of layers 0 and 1 after which it drops again to a minimum between the crossover point between layers 1 and 2, and peaks again at the end of layer 2 if a triple layer disc is used.

In practice, if you want the highest data integrity and defect management for BD-RE media, the realistic practical effective WRITE speed will be somewhere around 0.8X to 1.0X if you have selected 2X write speed and have enabled spare sectors on the disc during formatting of the disc beforehand.
 

[dbminter]

On my Pioneer 2209, I get higher than 2x Verify speeds on BD-RE.  Although the Verify rate does seem to be significantly lower.  Definitely lower than BD-R.  I asked LUK if Verify was dependent on any values set for specific media in the firmware.   He seemed to indicate it was just down to how the drive behaves.  So, maybe. 

[discuser]

On my Pioneer 2209, I get higher than 2x Verify speeds on BD-RE.  Although the Verify rate does seem to be significantly lower.  Definitely lower than BD-R.  I asked LUK if Verify was dependent on any values set for specific media in the firmware.   He seemed to indicate it was just down to how the drive behaves.  So, maybe. 

 

On my all my Pioneer BD writers all BD-RE media verifies only at constant 2X speed. Could never figure out why as I wish it would go faster. I suppose the up side of it is that when it reads at a low speed of 2X and the data can be read error free, it means that in the worse case it could read slowly and the data is error free. It only happens during the verify phase of ODD software, but during normal reads it does read up to 6X depending on data position as I have also confirmed this performance characteristic with with Opti-Drive Control. I have a Pioneer 09 series drive as well.

[dbminter]

On the 2209, I get about 5x max Verify of BD-RE media.  However it does start really low at like 2x and only slowly increases to 5x by the end of disc.

 

 

 

Is the 09 the same as the 2209?  Because there's also a 209 as well as the 2209.  I thought the 09, just by itself, was an older drive, but I'm not sure.

[discuser]

On the 2209, I get about 5x max Verify of BD-RE media.  However it does start really low at like 2x and only slowly increases to 5x by the end of disc. Is the 09 the same as the 2209?  Because there's also a 209 as well as the 2209.  I thought the 09, just by itself, was an older drive, but I'm not sure.

 

With BD-RE media I get up to around 5X to 6X or thereabouts at maximum speed. It's clear to me that the drive is under CAV mode during BD-RE reading.

 

When I said 09-series, I'm just referring to the drive generation, which started with 02 series - BDR-202. It went from 02 to 11 at present day. 09 is the previous just discontinued series. The official current series is the 11-series which has U-BD/U-HD playback capability with lots of very specific system requirements. Mechanically, performance wise each series is basically identical amongst variations with some minor differences from enhancements.

 

Pioneer BDR-209xBK, where X may be one of three possible suffixes, is the OEM version with no software bundle, basic embossed drive bezel and no retail packaging. The BDR-2209 is a product version for North America (USA / Canada) distribution with licensed bundled software in English language. If the user doesn't want bundled software they can choose the OEM version. In general, both are essentially the same drive and performance with minor differences. But the 09-series product has 9 sub-versions for different geographical regions and each sub-version has difference enhancements (some significant and some minor) even though the basic drive is the same in performance.

 

[dbminter]

Yeah, what I call the 2209 is actually internally the BDR-209M.  And there are various other strings like BDR-209UBK that I think identify this same drive.  Really more confusing than it needs to be, IMO.  And some bundles with my 2209 come with an M-Disc media included in addition to the Cyberlink media software suite.

[discuser]

Yeah, what I call the 2209 is actually internally the BDR-209M.  And there are various other strings like BDR-209UBK that I think identify this same drive.  Really more confusing than it needs to be, IMO.  And some bundles with my 2209 come with an M-Disc media included in addition to the Cyberlink media software suite.

 

BDR-209DBK has no BDXL media support and has deleted (D) support for DVD-RAM media (hence the D suffix). BDR-209UBK has BDXL media support and is for North American region (USA / Canada). BDR-209EBK is for European region, BDR-209JBK is for Japan domestic region. All drives are OEM versions with no software bundling, no retail packaging and plain drive bezel. BDXL media support has been present since 07-series. BK suffix is just simply black bezel, because in Japan, previously there was a choice of W white bezel and KR which is another dark colour close to black that is no longer available since 09-series.

Edited May 24, 2018 by discuser

[dbminter]

The BDR-209M does support DVD-RAM according to DVD Info.  Never actually tried using that media in it as I only ever used DVD-RAM on my old Panasonic DVD Video recorders starting from 2002.

[discuser]

Yes, but BDR-2XXDBK is not the same drive as BDR-2XXM. They did use the M suffix in the first generation of products that supported BDXL, namely the 07-series, but the M suffix is no longer used since 08-series, even if M is used internally to reference whether a drive supports BDXL or not. They are using geographical suffixes nowadays. So you could say that BDR-2XXM could refer to BDR-2XXJBK/UBK/EBK.