BDR-S12XLT vs BDR-212EBK - what's the difference?

[discuser]

6 hours ago, dbminter said:

I can't really build my own rig because of the size of my hands.  I'm 6 foot 6 and a half and my hands are pretty large.  It's difficult to work inside of a tower for me.  So, I've never built my own machines.  I just get Dell's, which I'm (Generally.) happy with.  Dell's used to have 2 half height bays in them until like 4 years ago, when I got my first Dell that had a slim BD in it.

That's a new one I've never heard of. It's not that hard and it's not like watchmaking, so I think if you tried it, you'll probably discover that you could build a system since everything is standardized and modularized.  If you can hold a regular screw between your fingers and operate a screw driver, then you probably can build a system. There are also various tools but generally building systems these days don't require more than perhaps a flat blade or Philips screw driver at most. Many computer casings are tooless and the only time you need to deal with screws are mounting the motherboard and dealing with expansion slot screws. I've been building all my computers since day one so I've never known what it's like to buy a pre-packaged system, which generally uses much cheaper components. Systems I've built for myself and others have easiliy run 1 1/2 decades or longer without major problems. The only time I would end up getting anything pre-packaged is a notebook computer but you can even easily customize / upgrade those these days.

It's probably not a good idea to buy a Pioneer 12-series ODD when the 12-series is already on the way out. Best to wait for the 13-series and their various variants. I do plan to pick up a premium 13-series model sooner rather than later. And for reasons I explained earlier, I doubt I will be using any type of DVD media again much, unless it's for a bootable disc for system restore, that sort of thing. But since BDs are bootable with any bootable ISO written on it, anything larger than a single layer DVD will go to a bootable BD for me.

[dbminter]

I'm going by experience simply trying to put ODD's into cases.  It was always struggle for me because of my large hands.  And, working with screws is a bit difficult for that reason.  That's why I used to buy thumbscrews for ODD's until they started making the case interiors so cramped that the panels wouldn't go back on with thumbscrews attached.

 

I use BD-RE for my bootable stuff, even if it fits on a CD or DVD-5.  Because BD-RE writes faster, unless you're dealing with a sizeable DVD-5, which once you reach a certain amount of space written to 8x DVD+RW, the speed increase is faster than a 2x BD-RE.  It takes about 2.5 minutes of writing data to an 8x DVD+RW before the full 8x kicks in, writing at only 6x.  (Optiarc DVD writers never had this limitation, though, always going to 8x from the start.)  I do write a good number of Macrium Reflect Rescue Media, which are bootable, so I have dedicated BD-RE since those reach only about 700 MB.

[discuser]

13 hours ago, dbminter said:

I'm going by experience simply trying to put ODD's into cases.  It was always struggle for me because of my large hands.  And, working with screws is a bit difficult for that reason.

Most modern casings use tooless drive bays, but you can always add screws to further secure the mounted drives and you can use nose-tipped pliers to hold screws as you operate a screwdriver. Building your own system allows you to have full flexibility and choice of components.

[discuser]

On 11/30/2021 at 6:34 PM, dbminter said:

As far as I know, Ritek is the only manufacturer still making 8x DVD+RW.  And they can only be purchased in Imation branded discs.

I think you should look a bit more closely at all the Ritek OEMed optical media. They have several brand names and some are licensed to them for use, like Plextor, which is licensed to Ritek for media branding, while Vinpower appears to have licensed the Plextor name for ODD hardware. The Ritek group markets optical media under nine different brands for different geographical regions and media grades. Just click on these sub-brands of the Ritek group to review the media offerings:

https://www.ritek.com/brand
https://www.traxdata.com/products-dvdr/

The media MID is probably Ritek anyway so as far as the drive goes it is the same media, more likely than not. You'll just have to buy some to try them out and find out. Also, presently Maxell DVD+RW media is supposedly OEMed by Ritek. I've used those also under the Maxell brand.

Edited December 3, 2021 by discuser

[dbminter]

Last time I used Maxell DVD-R (Maybe +R.) like a decade ago, they were Ritek.

[discuser]

9 hours ago, dbminter said:

Last time I used Maxell DVD-R (Maybe +R.) like a decade ago, they were Ritek.

They still are presently. Your problem solved.

[dbminter]

Well, that wasn't really my problem.    I use Verbatim MCC DVD-R or Taiyo Yuden genuine DVD-R for those uses.

[discuser]

On 12/1/2021 at 8:05 AM, kamild_ said:

Thanks for the advice, but shortly after creating this thread I found a nice deal on a new S12XLT for about 60 EUR, so I chose that one.

I also forgot to mention that the Pioneer BDR-S12XLT that you purchased, which is the premium retail model for the European region, has the additional feature of Piioneer's PURE READ version 4+, which is for the purpose of maximum CD red book audio reading accuracy and error correction / interpolation. PURE READ function is avaiilable only on their premium drive models only and not available on the lower models such as BDR-212EBK or BDR-212DBK. So the differences are beyond cosmetic compared to the lower models. You can read more about PURE-READ development / concepts here in these Google translated Japanese pages:

https://jpn-pioneer.translate.goog/ja/pcperipherals/dvdrrw/story/index_17.html?_x_tr_sl=ja&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US

https://jpn-pioneer.translate.goog/ja/pcperipherals/dvdrrw/story/index_27.php?_x_tr_sl=ja&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US

There's also a huge index of Pioneer ODD development articles in this index page and that gives the reader an idea how deeply they are involved in their ODD development in every aspect and component of it as they're they only remaining ODD manufacturer that makes all their own components.

Japanese text in images on pages don't get translated. Only actual text based characters will be:
https://jpn-pioneer.translate.goog/ja/pcperipherals/dvdrrw/story/?_x_tr_sl=ja&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US

You'll also need to download the Pioneer BDR-S12XLT utility for more specific drive control to fully use the drive's capabilities, available here for that model:

https://pioneer.jp/device_e/product-e/ibs/device_e/dev00001r_e.html#DriveUtility

Might as well also check for available firmware updates while you're on that same page.

Edited December 4, 2021 by discuser

[dbminter]

I always downloaded the Drive Utility for all Pioneer burners I've owned that offered it.  I always disable the low noise function because I prefer faster write speeds versus quiet operation.

[dbminter]

@discuser  Do me a favor, if you would.  When the Pioneer 213 series becomes available, please let me know in a reply in this thread.  Or by a private message if you want to.  Thanks!

[dbminter]

Looks like the 213 series has been released in Japan.  The BDR-213JBK.

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/pioneer-bd-dvd-cd-writer-optical-drives-back-from-the-dead

 

Looks like it currently retails for about $150.  Here's the Pioneer Japan's site (In Japanese, obviously.) for the drive:

https://jpn.pioneer/ja/pcperipherals/bdd/products/bdr-213jbk/?ad=pr

[dbminter]

I find it a tad bit dubious about the claims that the BDR-213JBK is 16 times faster writing DVD.  Considering it says the maximum write speed of DVD for the drive is 16x, which was the old maximum.  I also find it difficult to believe any drive could go from 16x to 256x write speeds in one generation.

[dbminter]

I went ahead and got a Pioneer 212 that arrived yesterday.  Circumstances got involved where I decided it was best to not wait for the 213 as my LG needed replacing.  So, I swapped in my spare LG to use in the meantime, sent the defective one in for swap, and ordered a Pioneer 212.  Preliminary tests show the major issue Pioneer had with their firmware for over 5 years has finally been addressed!

 

The Ricoh/Ritek 8x DVD+RW from over 5 years ago finally supported properly again.  No more failures to Verify on nearly full discs.  This is with previously formatted discs and new discs formatted by the 212.  I've not fully and thoroughly tested this yet with a playback test on DVD Video to make sure the discs were WRITTEN properly, though.  Which means a playback with no skips, pops, pauses, etc. in audio and video.

 

Several DVD-R and DVD+R DL test have been performed.  Again, not thorough playback tests on DVD Video, but, at least, there are no Verify failures and read tests on PC passed.

 

Still need to check one other big flaw.  On Ritek/Ricoh BD-RE, they Verify at mostly 2x speed until the very last minute or 2 where the speed jumps up to normal.  Hopefully, this has been addressed, but I won't know until I get a chance to test it.

 

Still need to check CD-R/RW, 4x DVD+RW, 4x DVD-RW, and BD-RE DL.  However, I rarely use those, so I don't know when I'll get an opportunity to test those.

 

All in all, though, addressing the fatal flaw for over 5 years in Pioneer's drives is a good sign.  However, past firmware has introduced this issue, FIXED it, and reintroduced it, so...

[dbminter]

One oddity of the firmware in the Pioneer 212.  It takes 35 seconds longer to write an 8x DVD+RW than it does on the WH16NS60.  At one minute and 25 seconds into burning, the drive drops the write rate to 0.0x and it stays there for 35 seconds before resuming, climbing back up to 8.0x.  It does this on "Ricoh" 8x DVD+RW from years ago and on the current 8x DVD+RW from Imation, made by "Ritek."

[dbminter]

Further testing has shown the Pioneer drives are still junk when it comes to writing 8x DVD+RW.  I put in a brand new, unformatted disc, let ImgBurn format and write it, and Verify failed on it.  So, Pioneer has taken SLIGHT steps forward, but are still junk.

 

In fact, the 212 DESTROYED the brand new DVD+RW I just tested!    I tried using it again in an LG WH16NS60 and it won't even get past Logical Unit is in process of becoming ready.  Which is what ASUS used to do on rewritable discs.

 

EDIT: Actually, I may have jumped to a conclusion too soon.  It could be the enclosure.  I took out the 212 and put in an NS60 and I still get Logical Unit messages on all DVD+RW discs.  Since it's highly unlikely both drives went bad at the same time and since I've tried other DVD+RW discs, the conclusion is either the enclosure, the USB cable, or the USB port are to blame.  More to come.

 

Must have been the enclosure.  I used a different enclosure with the 212 and the same disc that had at first appeared to have been destroyed and the Logical Unit message went away.  I used the same USB cable, so it's not the cable or port.  Could be a power supply issue as the other enclosure uses a different type of power supply.

[dbminter]

Yeah, the 212 is junk as well.  I put in a brand new unformatted 8x DVD+RW, wrote it once, played fine.  Write to it a 2nd time, and it never got beyond 3.3x.  Whenever this happens, Verify will always fail.

[dbminter]

Well, now I don't know WHAT to think!  After the failed burn from before, the NEW enclosure I installed, completely different manufacturer, was ALSO returning Logical Unit messages on all inserted discs.  So, I swapped in another Vantec enclosure, which was the same type that appeared dead before.  (This one Vantec randomly causes drives to appear with blank contents in File Explorer until power is cycled.  Vantec makes about 50% junk.)  Now, the same disc that was writing at 3.3x is back to 8x! 

 

It's POSSIBLE both enclosures went bad simultaneously as the OWC had been sitting on a shelf unused for years.  If the universe is ruled by god, I wouldn't put it past him.

[dbminter]

The 212 definitely is an unreliable performer when it comes to writing 8x DVD+RW.  It fluctuates between writing at 6x and 8x maximum.  You do one write and it's 6x max.  You use the same disc that just wrote at 6x max and write the same image in the same enclosure and conditions, and you get 8x! 

[dbminter]

Yeah, the 212 is definitely junk.  After repeated variances between 6x and 8x write maxes on DVD+RW, I put in a new, unformatted 8x DVD+RW in the 212.  It failed Verify, so Pioneer still doesn't know what the Hell it's doing when it comes to firmware.  For more than 5 years, the Pioneer firmware fails to properly write to any 8x DVD+RW.

 

And, given that Pioneer doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground, I fail to see any hope that the 213 will do any better.

[dbminter]

Tried a 2212 with the new 1.02 firmware; STILL borked after 5 years plus!    STILL can't properly write to DVD+RW without failing Verify.

 

I noticed that Pioneer's web site displays some older models they apparently don't make anymore.  On their products page, they list the 2212 and a USB half height model, but if you click on the links to buy them from the Pioneer store, the only model they offer on their web store is a USB slim.

 

So, I doubt the BDR-213 will ever make it to North America.

[dbminter]

The 213 is available from Pioneer's site for order.  And, gee, I wonder if Pioneer has ever addressed the 8x DVD+RW borked firmware across a dozen different devices?  They've only had nearly a decade to work on it...

[dbminter]

Well, wonder of wonders!  Could it be that Pioneer FINALLY address this near 10 year old issue?

 

I got a BDR-X13 USB drive to try out.  It passed its first test: a full 8x DVD+RW! 

 

However, it will take a series of successes with 8x DVD+RW before I'm satisfied.  I tried a newer Pioneer recently and it looked like the issue had been addressed, but apparently hadn't.  I also need more wider ranges of tests with other media, too.

 

[dbminter]

Well, THAT was certainly unexpected.  As equally unexpected as 8x DVD+RW apparently finally working, the 213 does NOT properly write to Verbatim BD-R!    They either fail to read on Verify or fail to finalize due to a "Positioning Error Detected by Read of Medium."  NEVER saw that before with any drive.

 

Once again, Pioneer proves it has NO idea what it's doing! 

 

[kesh99]

On 10/7/2022 at 6:55 PM, dbminter said:

Well, THAT was certainly unexpected.  As equally unexpected as 8x DVD+RW apparently finally working, the 213 does NOT properly write to Verbatim BD-R!    They either fail to read on Verify or fail to finalize due to a "Positioning Error Detected by Read of Medium."  NEVER saw that before with any drive.

 

Once again, Pioneer proves it has NO idea what it's doing! 

 

thank you for posting all your experiences with this, and especially for all the testing you've done. I was getting ready to pull the trigger and order one of these drives from a seller on the makeMKV forum but now I'm going to be looking at trying to get my own LG drive and flashing the firmware myself. should be way cheaper anyway

[dbminter]

The 213 only got worse!  Pioneer did update the firmware to fix BD-R, CD-R, and DVD+R DL, where the 213 WAS working with 8x DVD+RW FINALLY after TEN years... Pioneer BROKE 8x DVD+RW AGAIN in the 213!