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best medium for long term storage


britannia90
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  • 3 months later...

In short, the bottom line for me is... use hard drives for the vast majority of ones data backup, since it's more practical, but for more critical data backup I like to have recordable DVD's (one copy on Taiyo Yuden media and one copy on Verbatim media) around for a limited amount of my higher importance data backup in addition to my usual minimum of two hard drives (although I do admit I slack a bit in burning to DVD as not all of my high importance data is on DVD's yet, but a good portion is. still, I am pretty good with keeping up with the minimum standard of keeping data on two different hard drives).

 

I think generally speaking... quality DVD recordables (Verbatim/Taiyo Yuden (other brands might be okay, but these two are the safe choices for reliable optical media)) are the all-around best non hard drive storage for long term data storage at a reasonable price and low enough initial investment since you can get a DVD burner for about $20-30 and a 100-pack of Verbatim DVD's (so up to 470GB of storage) for around $25. so for about a $45-55 initial investment you get up to 470GB of storage. but in general hard drive storage is probably the all around best option because it's convenient and priced well and transferring data to it is quick enough etc. but another bonus with optical media is you ain't got to worry about accidental data deletion either.

so even for lazy people who slack-off on backing up their important files... hard drives are a nice/simple option as you simply keep a bare minimum of two copies on two different hard drives as people who fail to keep up with this minimum standard are just asking for trouble (or at the VERY least have the data spread out over two different storage mediums as those who fail to adhere to this standard will likely pay a steep price once their device fails and there data is gone forever).

or put it this way... besides regular hard drives, I tend to trust quality DVD media (Verbatim/Taiyo Yuden) for long term storage. note: lets say 'long term storage' means 10-20+ years as I feel confident quality DVD media will last at least that long as running some disc scans recently with KProbe on a few random DVD's I got (one from Nov 5th 2005 and a fair amount of others are probably around 2009-2012 range, so about 10-13+ years now) and they are still going strong.

speaking for myself... I think DVD's are a solid addition for long term storage backup outside of hard drive storage as I doubt anything will top that combo overall all things considered, especially if they don't have a lot of data to backup. but I only use DVD media for limited amount of higher importance data like family photo's and video's at this point in time. because it's not really practical to burn several TB's of data to DVD (since even 1TB of data on DVD media will be roughly 213+ standard 4.7GB DVD's) and while BD media would help a bit in this regard, since it's typically a minimum of 25GB per disc (so it would be about 40 discs per 1TB of data backup), I think the initial investment in it is not really worth it given burner prices are still a bit too high and even disc prices, while offer a better price per GB than DVD, are still a little high to where I would rather put that $ towards additional hard drives. but for some people who have a bit more $ to burn, 25GB BD discs can still be a realistic option but I have no idea how reliable they are as the years pass as you would think since they are jamming more and more data in the same physical space (since CD/DVD/BD discs are the same physical size), that it would make those disc less reliable than CD-R or DVD-R(or +R) media since tolerances are tighter.

I get maybe to some degree that online storage can be okay for a limited amount of data backup, but I would never trust it as my only backup source, as I want it in my physical possession.

p.s. I have heard some mention 'tape drives' but the initial investment is simply too high to seriously consider for the common person. but putting the tape drive reader aside, which appears to be the reason the cost is simply too high, the tapes themselves can offer storage space that's quite a bit cheaper than using hard drives etc. but I never looked into this all that much due to initial investment costs which is a show stopper.

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here is a couple of disc scans I did a couple of days ago now (on Liteon iHAS324B at 4x with KProbe on Linux Mint v20.3-Xfce using Wine v4.0.4 x86(32bit) through PlayOnLinux) as the Memorex brand (which I generally don't recommend), 'CMC MAGM01' media code, originally burned on Nov 5th 2005, which had to be burned on a Lite-On 1673s drive (I am not sure on burn speed, but probably 16x or so), and another Verbatim brand (which I do recommend), 'MCC03RG20' media code, originally burned on Dec 18th 2009, which was either burned on a Lite-On 1673s or Sony Optiarc 7240s at roughly 16x or so. so at this point in time that makes it 16+ years old and the other is 12+ years old and are likely to be solid for the foreseeable future since neither disc is anywhere near bad given the PIE's are low and, more importantly, the PIF's are low. but another Verbatim disc I got with a MCC004 media code (which I did not post here) is a bit worse than the MCC03RG20 one as later into the disc, while PIE's are still low, the PIF's, while still pretty good overall, it's solid red later into the disc at PIF 1's. for measure... I heard that generally speaking a person wants to keep PIF's to no more than '3' (not in terms of total PIF errors but in terms of the spike(s)) for more of a optimal burn quality etc (but if you have a bit over '3' it's not the end of the world as I would still bet on the disc being readable for a long time assuming the disc is stable as the years pass, which it probably is). another thing, while I can't say for sure, I suspect if a disc can last as long as these did without any obvious degradation (call it 10-15 years or so), they will probably last for the foreseeable future (say at least another 10+ years). another thing, recently I was trying to read back data (using ImgBurn) from a handful of generic CD-R's I burned in Sep 2002 and 2 out of 3 were okay (but it was a three disc set and if anyone failed it's pretty much shot). but I pitched these in the trash as I don't trust them and I already had the data on these backed up elsewhere etc (but about the only CD-R's I still have that I still trust are Mitsui 700MB CD-R's which I think I paid $50 for a 100-pack back around early-to-mid 2000's or so (I still got roughly 50-75 of these left). but if I were to buy CD-R's today I would get the usual Verbatim since they are likely good quality and pretty cheap at $20 for 100 of them) ; but anyways here is the two scans ill post for now...

 

 

KProbe-scan-3-26-22_burned-Nov-5-2005.png

KProbe-scan-3-26-22_disc-burned-Dec-18-09.png

Edited by ThaCrip
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  • 3 weeks later...

In short... given my recent experience, I would probably suggest getting Taiyo Yuden media over Verbatim if you want to be safe. because I recently had a issue with Verbatim DVD-R media (MCC 03RG20) which used to be rock-solid for me as the discs I still have from Jan 2014 still burn with high quality (as I recently burned some of those without issue as they are still up to their usual high quality standards on my burners (7240s/iHAS324B) unlike the ones I just bought here in April 2022.

 

because I recently got a 100-pack of Verbatim DVD-R Azo media (MCC 03RG20) from Amazon and, unless I got really unlucky, the disc quality is pretty much shot. because I know it's unlikely my burners (7240s/iHAS324B) are the issue given I can burn basically the same media I bought back in Jan 2014, and did recently, without issue. but that batch I got from Amazon, which is same media code, with KProbe the PI/PIF's are basically on the edge of failure if not failure level. because I burned a few discs, two on 7240s and one on my iHAS-324B and while the two completed the 'verify' process on ImgBurn on the 7240s you can tell the quality of those discs are pretty much shot as the PI's are generally in the 175-225 range with peaks being over 300 (even if this remains readable, the quality would be on the edge as I would not personally trust it) and the PIF's, while not as extreme, is still so-so compared to my usual standards as it's not far from solid RED on the 1's with plenty of 2's, some 3's and a tiny amount of 4's. but total PIF's were generally in the 8000 range, which is quite weak compared to my usual standards of probably around a couple hundred or so. I might have tolerated the PIF's had the PI's not been so bad (even total here was around 2.7mil where as the scan I posted above was only 87k, so a rather large difference in total PI's). I think ImgBurn still managed to verify this one though if I recall correctly. but either way, I don't trust the disc for long term storage of data.

 

but the other disc, which ImgBurn outright failed to verify (read error etc), so there is definite data corruption, had a general PI start off around 175-200 and slowly declined as the burn went forward down to around 75-100 or so for roughly 1/3rd of the disc. but then near the end of the burn the PI's went off-the-rails and shot up to around 250-350 range and during around this point in regards to the PIF's were basically SOLID RED in the general 10-25 range with some around 30 and a single spike of over 70 and another might have been around 50 etc, which is straight up horrible as it seems you want to keep that to around 3-4 tops (a little over that occasionally is probably not a huge concern though) for more of a optimal burn. even the total PIF's on this failed disc were nearly 16k and like I mentioned above I probably routinely float around 200 total PIF's on good media, or at least something sane, like you can see on the scan I posted in my previous post of 1500 or so.

 

so bottom line for me is... unless I got really unlucky with a bad batch of discs, I suspect Verbatim did something with their media(?) and if so, TY is probably a safer choice at this point even though it costs around $5-10 more per 100-pack. it's a shame as my opinion of Verbatim has been basically top notch in the DVD recordable market until recently.

 

p.s. but when I bought those Verbatim DVD-R 100-pack I also picked up a cheap Verbatim CD-R 100-pack for about $18. these are CMC Magnetics (Phthalocyanine dye) which I imagine are generally considered weaker than Verbatim's Azo variations. but I only use them for AUDIO CD's and in this regard, considering the price I got them for, are probably 'good enough' so far as they work okay on a couple of CD players I got from about 1991 and one from 2003 as even if a occasional disc fails, I can manage for the price I paid and I am not relying on them too heavily for any long term data storage. but if the hub code decoding info I read online is accurate these CD-R's are probably made on Jan 11th 2010. but if true, they would have been sitting for 12+ years now.

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If you're going for long term storage, you'll want M-Disc.  They cost more, but they last far longer than organic dye discs do.  Organic dye discs decay much faster.  M-Disc is akin to chipping pits in stone in terms of writing bits of data.  As long as your device supports reading DVD+R DVD discs, it will most likely read M-Disc DVD's.  And, of course, you will need a burner that supports writing to M-Disc.

 

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8 hours ago, dbminter said:

If you're going for long term storage, you'll want M-Disc.  They cost more, but they last far longer than organic dye discs do.  Organic dye discs decay much faster.  M-Disc is akin to chipping pits in stone in terms of writing bits of data.  As long as your device supports reading DVD+R DVD discs, it will most likely read M-Disc DVD's.  And, of course, you will need a burner that supports writing to M-Disc.

 

 

I have heard about those M-Disc in the past, and they appear to be a good option, but they seem harder to find and if you can find them they cost a arm-and-a-leg. plus, given my experience and others (like yourself from another post), it seems like regular quality media that was burned good initially and lasts a while without any obvious degradation will likely last decades since I got media (from Verbatim and Taiyo Yuden) around 10-15 years old since I initially burned it and it still scans well with KProbe and I figure if media lasts 10-15 years without any obvious degradation issues, it will probably last for the foreseeable future.

 

but thanks for the info ;)

 

NOTE: my Sony Optiarc 7240s is probably from 2009 and my Lite-On iHAS-324B from a quick look is May 2011. but they should still be solid burners with the right media. my oldest DVD burner for a PC is my original one, which still works to this day, which is a Lite-On 1673S (IDE) as I got that in 2005. hell, you can still buy Lite-On drives in the iHAS-x24 series, so I imagine my iHAS-324B has got to be pretty much up to modern enough standards even today and I am running newest available firmware for all of my burners.

p.s. I might look into the Verbatim DVD+R 100-pack as I found it online at a major retailer (for basically same price I got those Verbatim DVD-R 100-pack that does not like my burners (or possibly a bad batch of discs(?)) ) that will be easier to return (since I can just take it directly to the store instead of having to ship it back) should those disc fail to be up to the usual standards I am used to. I am hoping those fair better with my drive since they probably have a media code of "MID: MCC-004-00" since that's what my previously burned DVD+R Verbatim media has from many years ago now which still scan well on the handful I have re-scanned not all that long ago now.

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5 hours ago, dbminter said:

As long as you get the AZO or DataLife Plus DVD+R from Verbatim, they should be fine.  Not the Life Series, which will be CMC.

 

Yeah, I am aware of the 'Azo' etc being the best due to them being Mitsubishi dye as these tend to be the only ones I trust long term (and Taiyo Yuden media to. but I usually avoid TY given Verbatim is typically about the same quality but less $. but I still have around 50-75 TYG02 media (8x TY DVD-R) left from 2005-2007 time frame which I strictly use for higher importance data backup. so they will likely last me many more years before I run out of those as I typically burn a copy of my high importance data to Verbatim and TY discs as the odds of both of those failing at the same time should be slim and I also have backups on regular hard drives to).

but the Verbatim Azo DVD-R, are the ones I had a problem with recently, which was surprising given my experience in the past with top notch results.

but thanks for the info ;)

p.s. but I am going to wait until Amazon processes my refund before ordering the Verbatim DVD+R 100-pack from another major retailer for $24.99. because this way, even if those turn out to be bad, it will be much easier to return those since I can just go directly to their store locally for a refund. but assuming they keep the price at $24.99 ill probably be ordering a 100-pack within the next week or two and I might make a quick post here with the results of the burn quality.

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You can also make a cursory evaluation without having to do a burn quality test.  You can load a disc in ImgBurn and check the MID there.  If it says CMC, you know right away to return them.  That's what I did with the Life Series DVD at Office Depot.  I bought some before I knew Life Series was all CMC from Verbatim and checked the MID in ImgBurn upon opening the package.  Once I saw they were CMC, I took them right back ASAP.

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Well hopefully I got a solid deal (about $0.20 per disc) as I found 200 Verbatim (4x 50-packs) DVD+R 8x DataLifePlus, which I am guessing are 'MCC 003' media code.

now I just got to wait until they get here as hopefully everything runs smooth since the seller does not accept returns. but since they are probably older media (since it seems 16x (MCC 004) has been standard for a rather long time now) I suspect I should not have problems as I don't mind burning at 8x speed as I am primarily concerned with longevity of the media.

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Depending on the part of the world where they were manufactured, at least in North America, DataLife Plus Verbatim media is the MCC stuff.

 

If you want to burn at the higher speeds, newer firmware probably will write to older 8x media at 16x.  However, as you state, since your purpose is longevity of data, burning at a slower speed certainly shouldn't hurt.

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They should be 'Made in Taiwan' given the picture shows that.

but in terms of burn speed on DVD media... I suspect it's possible my drives will burn faster than 8x with them as I know I can burn faster than 8x with TYG02 media (which as Taiyo Yuden 8x certified DVD-R) as I think I can do 12x with those and I know my drive allows I think it was 20x on 16x Verbatim DVD-R Azo media etc but I suspect going too fast might increase jitter etc. but probably not a big deal for general data backup. I think the only media code that allows my burner to burn at 24x is TYG03 (so TY 16x certified media), which I never owned any of those so far. NOTE: I am running newest firmware for all of my CD/DVD burners, which probably means early 2010's firmware.

because from what I read on other forums... some have mentioned they generally stick to about 16x for standard audio CD-R's as a pretty safe bet in terms of keeping jitter a bit more reasonable (which makes it more likely a standard audio CD player will work) vs burning max or near max CD-R speeds.

 

but regardless of all of that... I am in no rush when it comes to burning as it seems like as long as a person can burn at least 4x speed, burn times are reasonable and at 8x is plenty fast enough unless a person is constantly burning a lot of media.

thanks for the info.

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I had forgotten you had older drives, which means the firmware is probably older and might not have any faster than highest rated speeds burning.  But, that could be a benefit as older drives might have had more time to work out the kinks.  If they've updated the firmware consistently over a longer period of time.

 

However, with older drives with older firmware, you do run the risk that more modern media may be incompatible.  The modern media may have had necessary manufacturing process changes only addressed in newer firmware.  I do know that Verbatim changed the process for its DataLife Plus DVD-R and DVD+R so that the 1.02 firmware in the WH16NS60 did not write properly to it anymore when it had worked before.  1.03 firmware fixed that.

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46 minutes ago, dbminter said:

However, with older drives with older firmware, you do run the risk that more modern media may be incompatible.

I wonder if that happened to me on Verbatim DVD-R Azo's recently? (if not, possibly a faulty batch of DVD-R's(?)) ; because the disc burn quality was pretty much horrible compared to the usual standards and both of my burners (7240s (from 2009) and iHAS-324B (from 2011)) reacted similar (I did not try my older Liteon 1673s since I assume that would not fair any better since it's from 2005).

still, it don't seem like they would change anything significantly because if the media only burns half way decently with a handful of fairly recent burners, a lot of people would be complaining since the majority of DVD burners out there are probably in the last 10-15 years or so I would guesstimate. like you would think it would have to work on the majority of burners out there as I know my burners were on the better side of things in their day. my Liteon iHAS-324B burners firmware date should be from Oct 2011 from a quick look online.

but looking on Amazon for example it seems a good selling DVD burner is "ASUS DRW-24B1ST" and even checking the ASUS website for firmware updates, the newest one it shows is from March 2014. so 2 years and 5 months newer than my iHAS-324B's firmware. so unless something got tweaked in a fairly short time window it don't seem like this would effect much. unless maybe they tweaked that Verbatim DVD-R 16x Azo stuff shortly after I bought my current batch in Jan 2014 (which still burns great to this day on my burners). but who knows, maybe that's a possibility.

 

46 minutes ago, dbminter said:

I do know that Verbatim changed the process for its DataLife Plus DVD-R and DVD+R so that the 1.02 firmware in the WH16NS60 did not write properly to it anymore when it had worked before.  1.03 firmware fixed that.

 

That's weird, because taking a quick look online it shows it's (WH16NS60) a BD-R burner and I would assume that drive is much newer than general Verbatim DataLife Plus DVD-R(or DVD+R) media, correct? ; because it seems like all of the newer Verbatim media that's good is the 'Azo' label and the 'DataLife Plus' label, as far as I can tell, is probably older stock (roughly 10+ years ago to take a guess(?)) at this point.

so I would tend to assume even with initial release firmware on that WH16NS60 drive it should be up to decent working standards. or where you saying that it was working okay initially, but a update to v1.02 firmware messed it up, and then they released another update to v1.03 to correct it?

Edited by ThaCrip
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1.02 firmware was working with Verbatim DataLife Plus DVD-R and DVD+R and then stopped working on 1.02.  After more than 1 batch of each was tested, the most logical conclusion was Verbatim changed the manufacturing process so they no longer worked on 1.02 firmware.  I told LG they needed to update the firmware.  After 1.03 came out, Verbatim DVD-R (Didn't check DVD+R.) resumed working fine.  I temporarily switched to TY DVD-R because they were still working.

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Given what you just said... I am starting to think it's probably a lack of proper firmware support for those Verbatim DVD-R 16x Azo discs I had issues with recently, which while sucks for me, at least that means Verbatim's reputation for quality media is still top notch with the Azo's.

were those DataLife Plus DVD-R discs you had issues with 8x or 16x certified? ; the ones you said some worked on v1.02 firmware and some did not, but the ones that had trouble burning resumed working like normal after you updated to v1.03 firmware.

I guess at this point I am just hoping those Verbatim DataLife Plus 8x DVD+R discs I ordered are old enough ;) ; but if I knew when they pretty much stopped making the Verbatim DataLife Plus 8x certified DVD+R, then I would almost know for sure if those discs I ordered will work or not. so if they stopped making them about 11-12+ years ago, chances are ill be fine. but looking at that the VideoHelp site there should be a good chance these are 'MCC 003'... https://www.videohelp.com/dvdmedia?dvdmediasearch=verbatim&dvdmediadvdridsearch=&type=3&size=4.7&dvdburnspeed=8&order=Name&hits=50&search=Search+or+List+Media

because on that link besides the 'Verbatim (Pearl White)' (any idea what these discs look like?, which could be 'CMC MAG E01' or 'RITEK R03') the rest of the media codes listed should be top notch, which is pretty much 'MCC 003'. plus, all of the comments there seem to be pretty much in the 2000's decade which gives me more confidence my burners will work okay with it since mine is basically 2009/2011 (and one from 2005).

because the discs I ordered are those printable types with a blank white label on the surface apparently. so as long as these are not 'Pearl White', it appears the discs should be nearly guaranteed to be 'MCC 003' ;)

Edited by ThaCrip
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The DVD-R I was using that stopped working on 1.02 and then resumed on 1.03 were 16x certified.  I am guessing, though I don't remember for sure, the DVD+R were as well.  I rarely use DVD+R.  I only tried them out when the DVD-R stopped working to see if they might be a viable substitute.

 

Those "pearl white" ones sound like thermal printable label surfaces, though I don't know that for sure.

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Thanks for the info.

 

15 hours ago, dbminter said:

Those "pearl white" ones sound like thermal printable label surfaces, though I don't know that for sure.

the comment on the following link gives me hope they are not...  https://club.myce.com/t/pearl-white-verbatim-cmc/160979/7

another comment from that VideoHelp link... "Excellent full hub printable media with the metal azo dye!"

but at this point ill just have to wait and see when they get here ;)

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Well, near as I can tell, AZO dye is not metallic.  Only BD-R has metal oxide in it.  The nature of recordable CD and DVD is they use organic dye, which decay faster than metal oxides.  But, I don't know that for sure.

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Hell, they just got here a moment ago, a bit earlier than expected. ImgBurn shows... "Disc ID: MCC-003-00" 🤩  ; supported write speeds, at least on my 7240s drive (from 2009), shows '4x, 6x, 8x'. on my iHAS-324B it shows '6x, 8x' for supported write speeds. I did not check my Lite-On 1673S (from 2005) which I suspect will be similar to the 7240s.

but I noticed the top of the Verbatim DVD+R disc itself it's different looking than my TY (TYG02) media is as while both are white, these Verbatim DVD+R 8x are shiny/smooth/hard surface looking where as the TYG02 (Taiyo Yuden DVD-R 8x) media I got back in 2005-2007 looks more like typical paper surface.

I attached a screenshot of what each of the four containers looks like as I imagine these are hard to find nowadays, so assuming there burn quality is up to a higher standard, ill likely have gotten a solid buy on them at pretty much $0.20 a disc since it seems nowadays everything of quality is at least $0.25+ a disc if not around $0.30-0.35 or so.

but ill probably burn some in the next day or so and use KProbe to do a disc quality check but I can't imagine ill have any problems given this is probably media from the 2000's decade (maybe early 2010's MAX(?)).

p.s. one is opened, as in no plastic wrap on it (but the other three are still in plastic wrap), but it appeared that way when I bought it, so no big deal, and there is a bit of damage on the bottom of the plastic container of the one that was opened, but the discs are likely uneffected.

21 minutes ago, dbminter said:

Well, near as I can tell, AZO dye is not metallic.  Only BD-R has metal oxide in it.  The nature of recordable CD and DVD is they use organic dye, which decay faster than metal oxides.  But, I don't know that for sure.

I see. so that's the general word, but it's hard to say with certainty. but thanks for the info

Screenshot_2022-04-20_10-21-42.png

Edited by ThaCrip
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Yeah, no one packages optical discs well enough for shipping.  The cake stacks are almost always damaged in transit from Amazon.com.  That's why I save the cake stacks whenever they arrive undamaged.  After I'm done with the discs, I have cake stacks to swap in for ones that arrived damaged.  However, I've been doing that for years, so I have older ones, since hardly any of the new ones arrive undamaged.

 

So, looks like I was right in that those pearl white ones were thermal label discs.  That just means you need a special printer to print labels on the surface.  I don't know much about them.  I don't know if thermal printers ever took off or if they still make them anymore.  I get my discs as inkjet printable, even though I don't have an inkjet capable printer for printing on the label surface.  However, they are good enough for using CD markers on to write to.  And, if I ever get an inkjet capable CD label printer, I can write labels to them in the future.

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Well based on the first disc I burned at 8x on the 7240s, and then scanned with KProbe at 8x with the IHAS324B drive... short of a really high burst of PI's at the very beginning (peak spike is 828, which is bad, but this might be a fluke(?)), the burn quality is pretty strong overall as you can generally see earlier on besides that really short but high PI burst of 828 (which you can't even really see in the KProbe picture) things tend to top out around 50 for a bit after that and eventually hits a point where the PI's are really low for a good portion of the disc. PIF peak spike was 5 (which this general area is the worst of the PIF's), but they are pretty minimal overall.

or to just give you the quick numbers...

-PI = 828 MAX(might be a fluke(?)), average 7.80, total 127559. note: but like I say short of that really bad 828 thing, which does not really show in the picture, PI's pretty much top out in the 50 or so range early on and then things eventually reach that more top notch range for a good portion of the disc etc and just given the 7.80 average says a lot about overall quality of the burn.

-PIF = 5 MAX, average 0.15, total 2447. note: so this is pretty much top notch as short of a small area around the '5 peak spike' there is not much red color on the rest of the disc as when this peak happened, and in that general area, the PI's are pretty low as during that initial PI spike area of 828 there is barely any PIF's registering.

but doing a quick copy of data back from the iHAS324B burner to the hard drive you can see read speed is a bit slow for about the first 100-200MB at about 4-5MB or so transfer speed (so it's slower than it should be, but the drive does not seem to struggle too much reading it either) but then you can hear the drive ramp up and goes full speed for the rest of the transfer.

doing that same transfer from 7240s drive back to hard drive, it goes full speed the entire time. I would post the picture but the very brief super high 828 spike basically kills the graph to where you can't really see the details of the PI's like you normally can. so I figured it's not worth posting.

ill have to try more discs here in the coming days/weeks but do you think it's worth lowering write speed at all, or any tips? ; because that disc could have been a bit of a fluke issue with the PI as it's too early to say for sure. because I am hoping that really large PI spike in the beginning does not show up in the future as short of that I am not worried about write quality at all overall (as it's pretty much usual Verbatim Azo level standards, give or take a bit) as even compared to more of that 'perfection' standard, it's probably not far off from it.

but I guess I could play with write speed, or try burning on iHAS324B, but I usually just burn stuff with the 7240s and have for quite a while now. but I suspect what I might do is try another disc or so at 8x write just to see if it consistently acts similar or not. if so, then I might try lowering write speed or try burning on the iHAS324B burner at 8x and if anything is funny there try 6x.

come to think of it... is there any chance the reason I seen that spike and then it pretty much smooths out not long after is due to the drive trying to learn the media etc? ; because this is the very first MCC 003 discs it's ever burned.

so at the end of the day... at least based on a single disc I burned so far, short of the really high, but brief, PI spike, these burns are pretty strong overall.

 

34 minutes ago, dbminter said:

Yeah, no one packages optical discs well enough for shipping.  The cake stacks are almost always damaged in transit from Amazon.com.  That's why I save the cake stacks whenever they arrive undamaged.

Good point.

because I basically transferred the damaged stack over to a old CD-R stack I had that was almost gone and put those old general CD-R's onto the semi-broke stack.

33 minutes ago, dbminter said:

However, they are good enough for using CD markers on to write to.

That's pretty much the bottom line for me as I never use that print feature if the discs have it or not as I always opt for markers as the market I am currently using is made for writing on recordable discs as it says 'Maxell Disc Writer' and under that 'Permanent marker for recordable discs'.

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I wouldn't think any drive actually has to "learn" media it's never written to before.  Because the drive itself cannot store such data as only the firmware portion contains any writable memory, I'd think.

 

I would try lowering the speed and using a 2nd disc to see if there's any more initial "bursts" like you encountered.  I'd be a bit wary of a burned disc that has a slow reading portion on it at any point.

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Burned on Sony Optiarc 7240s at 6x. Scanned with Lite-On iHAS-324B at 8x and this time, while there is a spike initially, the spike is much lower and should be safe given I heard up to 280 PI is within spec I think and I got 159 very briefly at start but after that things are good but not as good as the 8x burn but the 8x burn had a huge PI spike to 800+ at beginning. so in other words... short of the huge PI 800 spike on the 8x burn, the 8x burn is actually better than the 6x burn overall, but the 6x burn should be 'safe' even though not in that more 'perfect' range of say around 10 PI etc. plus, you can see the PIF's are higher on 6x to (there are more solid red sections but at least it's at the low point of '1'), but nothing I would be too concerned about. but ImgBurn burned it in 10min (about 5MB shy of a full 4.7GB disc) and verify was at max speed on 7240s with no slow down. I have not tried a basic transfer test with copying files to hard drive yet on either drive but I suspect it won't have the initial 100-200MB slow transfer speed on the iHAS-324B like the 8x burn with the 800+ PI spike did.

I wonder if it's worth trying 4x burn on the 7240s, or maybe try 8x burn on the iHAS-324B (or maybe even my old IDE Lite-On 1673S from 2005(?)) as maybe the Lite-On will handle the burns a bit better on these older media etc?

but anyways here is the KProbe picture (EDIT: added another picture with just a quick scan of the first 1.7% of the disc to see a little more detail on that initial spike)...

KProbe - FOD89 7240s 6x 4-21-22.png

Kprobe 1 point 7 percent scan and stop.png

Edited by ThaCrip
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Here is a burn I tried on my old Lite-On 1673s (Oct 2005 dated firmware basically) from 2005 as I burned at 8x. but, while the PI's ain't great (the overall worst of the three burns so far (two on 7240s(8x and 6x) and one on 1673s(8x))), they are still within spec and are not close too close to the edge. but the PIF's are what has me concerned, especially late into the disc where everything is solid red from 6+ and tops out in the 16 range. even putting aside that portion of the disc, you got a peak of 8 PIF, which I don't like, and just the total volume of PIF's are a bit too high for my liking as you can see it's pretty much solid red across the whole burn at about PIF 2 (I could have probably dealt with this if it where not for those higher PIF peaks). I suspect a slower burn on that 1673s drive 'might' help a bit, but overall I just don't see this drive competing with my two newer burners, so I doubt ill be using this 1673S drive any further for this media. but copying data from that disc burned on the Liteon 1673s with my iHAS-324B to my hard drive it did not seem to have any obvious problems reading the disc, which is a good sign.

so I guess at this point ill have to try my Liteon iHAS-324B at 8x and see how that fairs etc. I might even try going back to 8x on 7240s just to see if that PI 800 spike was a fluke or not. because short of that PI 800 spike, the burn quality was the best so far overall and even my Liteon 1673s did not have any obvious trouble reading that PI 800 disc with copying data back to hard drive.

but lets say what I am seeing so far here in the first couple of burns on the 7240s is about what I can roughly expect from this media, it should still be reliable enough to use on some level of important data, just nothing TOO critical and given I got them for $0.20 a disc, I can't complain. so I guess at the end of the day... even if the burn quality I got on my 7240s at 6x is consistent (like it is in the picture posted in my previous post), chances are these discs will last a long time given they are probably somewhere in the 2000's decade, I would guess somewhere around mid-2000's, and they still burn well enough as if they are still okay after probably 10-15+ years I suspect they will remain that way for many years to come.

EDIT: after burning a disc on my Liteon iHAS324B burner at 8x this is the best burn yet. but I think if it were not for that major PI 800 spike on the 7240s, both drives would be similar with the 7240s might be coming out a bit ahead. on a side note: I recently overburned a Verbatim CD-R (CMC Magnetics media code), which I recently got a 100-pack of CD-R's, to 82:14:66 (82min15sec) and the CD plays without issue on my original audio CD player which has a April 1991 mfg date on it as it shows up as 82min12sec on that CD player. that's the furthest I ever attempted a overburn on a CD-R and had no errors whatsoever in ImgBurn either and ImgBurn completed the 'verify' at max speed without issue, nor any slow down.

but here is the KProbe scan for the Liteon 1673s burned at 8x in first picture and second picture is burned on iHAS-324B at 8x...

KProbe - TBL07 - burned 1673s at 8x on 4-21-22.png

KProbe - MKA97 burned on iHAS324B at 8x on 4-21-22.png

Edited by ThaCrip
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Unfortunately, I know next next to nothing about PIE, PIF, jitter scans etc. as I never employ them.  In fact, I don't think I've ever done a single one.

 

As long as burn and verify completed, I've been relatively satisfied with the results.  I recently made a post here on my long term results of various MID burns to discs; mostly DVD-R's.  Except for the obvious culprits of CMC, VANGUARD, or other no name brands, only a handful of discs weren't fully readable after almost 20 years.  And those that were failures may not have actually been real failures.  As I later discovered, the WH16NS60 sometimes fails to read some discs that other drives don't have an issue reading.  Came across a pressed disc just last week where that happened.  My Pioneer BD read it, but the NS60 wouldn't.

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