Mozilla

[Grain]

It's being released later today. Read more about it here. My favorite browser hopefully getting better.

[lfcrule1972]

Yeah I read about it at lunch Grain - I will be updating mine too !

[dbminter]

It's finally out, it seems.

 

 

You what was even more surprising? Opera 8.51 actually appears to have FIXED the memory leak, 0 bytes page loading error that has been in there since all non Preview releases after 7.54.

 

 

Acronis has recently released Disk Director 10. I wonder if they DIDN'T test it... like True Image 9.0... and True Image 8.0, and...

[digidragon]

Good to see db is still persevering with my favourite browser, Opera

[kevdriver]

After seeing all you guys hyping this Firefox Browser, my curiosity is overflowing...... . What makes this different and better than IE. I've never used anything but IE but knowing that you guys wouldn't use anything but what you thought was best, maybe I could pick your minds a bit and perhaps think about switching over to Firefox. Thanks Guys. Whats the diff between Firefox and Opera?

Edited November 30, 2005 by kevdriver

[Int 21h]

Different rendering engines, different features, different future aims.

 

FireFox is based on the Gecko rendering engine. The organization behind Gecko is pretty interested in supporting open standards, and isnt afraid to jump into supporting new things. (Full PNG support with correct alpha transparency is an example). FireFox is also entirely aimed at obeying existing web standards and maintaining compliance in the future. (Some day passing the ACID-2 test is an example of that commitment) There are lots of little features that make FireFox appealing, Tabbed browsing, a robust plugin architecture (very easy to write your own extensions), faster turnaround time for security related issues ( how long has this arbitrary code execution thing lingered around in Internet Explorer?)

 

Internet Explorer for Windows is based on what they call the MSHTML rendering engine. Its different because it was originally designed to be the core behind Windows explorer, and as an application development component. This needs have, at times, driven its development further away from web standards and more into Windows-centric things. If you want an idea of how things would be different, had it been designed from the ground up as a web browser, look towards IE for Macintosh, which for its time, had much better standards compliance (because it uses yet a different rendering engine, I forget its name).

 

Opera has yet another rendering engine. I forget its name too, but its main focus has been combining the idea of a web browser with an extensible core that can be used elsewhere. This brings, at times, the best of both worlds in terms of a developer experience and a user experience. Opera has tabbed browsing (one of the first browsers to implement), ad blocking stuff, but at the same time, a tight enough core that it is integrated into things like Dreamweaver and Adobe GoLive. Opera also has its own issues though. Since they have a mantra that in essence insists they go the 'open' route. They aren't always quick to implement things that aren't entirely open. (XmlHttpRequest for example) Which means, cutting, bleeding edge things usually have skimpy, if any Opera support. (Google AJAX applications are an example).

 

It really comes down to a question of what sort of features are you looking for. Eventually when you become accustomed to tabbed browsing, session saving, extension modifying, adblocking.. you find something one day that just totally knocks your socks off. Like BugMeNot or GreaseMonkey, two really neat extensions that would never be possible in the InternetExplorer world (although they could be possible in an addon sort of browser like MyIE). As an aside, if you're looking for the most standards compliant browser, its actually Apple's Safari browser. Its core is LGPL'd from the KHTML project, and a x86 equivalent (the original core that Apple decided to use) for Linux called Konquerer is available. I actually think a Win32 port of Konquerer would be really neat, but nobody has done it for some reason... (Qt issues? Who knows.)

Edited November 30, 2005 by Int 21h

[dbminter]

Good to see db is still persevering with my favourite browser, Opera

 

 

Well, I really would like to see Opera back on its own feet again. But, I have to say that the majority of my web browsing was taken over by Firefox. Opera, for too long, ignored a problem that has been there for a year, a problem that enabled pages to think they were open when they were being downloaded. Thus, they never finished. Opera still has the idea of REAL saved sessions (Netscape 8's idiotic idea is to only save them when YOU save them AND ONLY as your default opening "home pages." Idiots!) which is essential, IMO, because of how a web page can crash your entire browser when you open it. Even at that, Opera needs to rethink their strategies. Forcing users to move over from a save anywhere to save in one place scenario severely limits disaster recovery for the software because you must save your session, rename the file, blah blah blah. Plus, the excedingly SIMPLE idea of having a user option where Opera, on start, DOESN'T load the page CONTENTS, just the contents of the pane in focus, and only the URL's in the destination bar for all others. Then, on selecting a new tab, the page loads when it becomes the focus, or, manually loads when told to by the user. Would drastically reduce load times and potential crashes, e.g. you open a page that crashes Opera, and, the current structure is if you reopen the session, it will crash again because it automatically opens all the pages. A great idea only IF crashes never occurred. Which Opera does a lot, I'm afraid. Just randomly disappears from memory sometimes, too.

 

 

So, to be honest I'd rather see some of Opera's features imported into Firefox, since, if Opera could do it, Firefox DEFINITELY could. For instance, the simple concept of RESIZING tabs to fit instead of scrolling them off into right side infinity.

[Int 21h]

...Opera still has the idea of REAL saved sessions (Netscape 8's idiotic idea is to only save them when YOU save them AND ONLY as your default opening "home pages." Idiots!) which is essential, IMO, because of how a web page can crash your entire browser when you open it. ...

 

http://www.extensionsmirror.nl/index.php?showtopic=166 is pretty neat. It saves everything about the current session, even entries into forms and what not. Its come in handy when I've crashed out in the middle of updating a wiki or forum post. Its all completely automatic as well. I think it pretty much sews up all of the Opera 8 session saving abilities?

Edited November 30, 2005 by Int 21h

[lfcrule1972]

Hi Kev - I wish I could wax as lyrical as the guys above, it was much simpler for me. IE6 started randomly crashing when viewing pages, I did virus check after check with different progs and found nothing.

 

I tried the MS support pages and found similar problems but nothing to fix the problem. I mailed MS and was told that to fix their browser I would have to pay !!!

 

So a while back I asked on the DVDD forum for advice and lmao2k put me onto Firefox and I have never looked back. Its miles better and nicer to use than IE6, I like the tabbed browsing, much tidier than lots of seperate instances of IE being open, it blocks pop ups and you can get new themes etc easily from the homepage.

 

I still have IE6 installed for the updates for the PC but thats all I use it for now !

 

Give it a go mate......

[linx05]

I use Maxthon, which uses the IE engine. Love it to death. I use to have Firefox has a secondary browser. But once Opera went free, it got put to the side.

 

Finally I had a go of this new version. It appears a lot smoother. The menus, the configuration dialog - much faster. Especially when you click Ok to save what you have changed. But, the amount of resourses it uses is just stupid. I want a browser which uses less than 15mb, not 80+. So with that memory leaks still there, I uninstalled it again.

[digidragon]

I've never experienced db's problems, and there are a couple of things I don't like about Opera, but it's the one I use the most. I use it for all my email now, I use its built-in IRC client, and I've even tried its new built-in bittorrent client.

 

I like the new Firefox, but I still prefer Opera. There are lots of little things I miss. Like for example, in Opera if I accidentally close a tab, I can unclose it with one click. A tiny thing, but really convenient at times. There are lots of these mini features in Opera that other browsers don't have.

[dbminter]

I've never experienced db's problems

There's a shock!

 

 

I like the new Firefox, but I still prefer Opera. There are lots of little things I miss. Like for example, in Opera if I accidentally close a tab, I can unclose it with one click. A tiny thing, but really convenient at times. There are lots of these mini features in Opera that other browsers don't have.

 

 

Oh? I was not aware of this, I don't think. How can I use this one click? I find I am closing Opera tabs unnecessarily because Opera, sometimes, won't "detect" the click until several in. By then, I've also accidentally clicked on another close tab which it, conveniently, of course, accepts on the FIRST try.

[digidragon]

Oh? I was not aware of this, I don't think. How can I use this one click? I find I am closing Opera tabs unnecessarily because Opera, sometimes, won't "detect" the click until several in. By then, I've also accidentally clicked on another close tab which it, conveniently, of course, accepts on the FIRST try.

It's on the Window menu under Closed ►

 

But these delays in the clicks getting through doesn't sound healthy. Does this happen all the time, or when windoze is running a lot of programs? Have you tried tweaking Opera's memory cache settings...?

[dirio49]

I like the new Firefox, but I still prefer Opera. There are lots of little things I miss. Like for example, in Opera if I accidentally close a tab, I can unclose it with one click. A tiny thing, but really convenient at times. There are lots of these mini features in Opera that other browsers don't have.

 

Firefox has this option too, but you need to install a extension(tabmixplus)

as for internet explorer haven't used it in ages.

Middle clicking on the tab bar, open back the tabs that you have close, one at a time.

Edited December 2, 2005 by dirio49

[digidragon]

Another very small but useful thing in Opera is "Paste & Go" on the context menu. Very useful for pasting addresses into the address bar, or words/phrases in the google seach box, without having to hit enter or click Go.

 

Apparently Firefox can do it as well. But you have to install an another extension...

[dbminter]

Paste And Go is a favorite of mine, too. Also the ability to pretty much completely remove the toolbar. I moved all my icons into a drop down from the destination bar.

[dbminter]

But these delays in the clicks getting through doesn't sound healthy. Does this happen all the time, or when windoze is running a lot of programs? Have you tried tweaking Opera's memory cache settings...?

 

 

No, Opera has a threshold of tabs where once X are opened, page downloads slow down faster than they should. A memory leak, IMO, because, when it happens, other things become affected with symptoms that are indicative of low memory resources. Like overlays in Windows Explorer display solid black, etc. and can only be fixed by a reboot. And, at the moment, I have a lot of tabs open to go through. Once I get them down and closed, Opera will start to behave. But, this has been there since 7.54 and not present in the Preview releases, even though it is in Betas, so, it's something they add in the Betas but not the Previews. My guess is the Java engine?

 

 

I've made the cache settings pretty much as great as possible.

[digidragon]

Well, opening a new tab is pretty much like opening a new browser instance, so it each use up memory. If the memory cache is set to Automatic Opera will use as much as it needs. Maybe try limiting it to say 60MB and see how it goes. I know Opera gets accused of having memory leaks from time to time, but the developers deny it. I can't say I've noticed any. Also, have you tried the preview of 9.0? Does that have the same issues for you, or is it better behaved?

 

I don't have java installed any more, and I haven't missed it. Maybe you could uninstall it, or disable java from within Opera...?

Edited December 1, 2005 by digidragon

[dbminter]

Yes, the designers deny it's there. One of the things that has gradually made me drift away from it. Plenty of examples from others on how to re-create the situation and Opera just says to adjust the # of connections. Unfortunately, the deny it's there outright answer is indicative of software that will, eventually, just rot away.

 

 

I wasn't aware there was a 9.0. I could try it. But, I highly doubt it will help.

 

 

I never thought that a new tab might be a new instance. It never seemed to be. e.g. Internet Explorer runs higher crash risks once you open beyond 9 instances. But, Opera, etc. never had that problem. And, as far as what I will call memory leak for sake of ease, neither Firefox nor Netscape versions that had tabbed browsing suffered from the same problem. The new instances thing would be easily solved with MY idea. DON'T load ALL the pages on start. Just the one in the current focus. Instead paste the URL's into the destination field and wait for actual loading until they become the focus or manually loaded by the user.

 

 

I set my cache to 40 MB because it seemed to operate better there under my setup than at 60.

Edited December 2, 2005 by dbminter

[digidragon]

Just out of interest, how many tabs do you normally have load at startup?

[dbminter]

No way of knowing, really. What ever needed to be left open that I didn't finish from before. So, it fluctuates. Sometimes many, sometimes few. The test case I created had somewhere between 30 and 40

[dbminter]

Where can Opera 9 preview be found? Opera always manages to so easily bury anything that isn't the current version in multiple layers of constantly changing web addresses. Thanks!

[digidragon]

It can be found at http://snapshot.opera.com/windows/w90p1.html

[zacoz]

I've been using Firefox for a while now (dating back to v 0.5 or something I think) as my secondary browser (primary for possible dodgy / unknown sites due to better security). I think with v 1.5 it has reached the stage where it's close to becoming my primary browser. It's faster loading than it used to be and I don't think I've had a problem displaying any pages (a pain with past versions - possibly to do with sticking to standards). You really need to check out the extensions, which allow you to tweak it to work how you want (Adblocker, Tab Browser Prefs my must have favourites).

 

The 2 things I like the most are:

( a ) that you can move back and forward to pages you've already viewed at a fraction of the time it takes in IE, and

( b ) for images if you right click --> save the target of a link, and then click on the link it is smart enough to know that you've already downloaded the image and opens it up straight away (doesn't make you wait while it downloads again like IE)

 

Having said this, I am still using Slimbrowser presently for what I consider known or likely safe sites. It uses the IE rendering engine, and is much faster and more stable than any other IE based browser I've tried. It's also got a load of useful features without having turned into bloatware. If you are reluctant of straying too far from what you know with IE, then it's a brilliant way to get the benefits of tabbed browsing.

Edited December 5, 2005 by zacoz

[dbminter]

Well, Preview 1 of Opera 9 showed some promise. But, remember, the Preview versions of 8 were free of the bug, too. The Beta and Gold versions had it. Even 9 isn't entirely free of it. What it does better, though, is not entirely "lock up." You can open links on pages, even if the pages themselves never fully load, in other Tabs. Most importantly, I can close Tabs for things that were open. Before, I had to CTRL+ALT+DEL, terminate Opera, reopen Opera, QUICKLY find the tab I want to close and repeatedly try to close it, and hope it gets closed in time before Opera goes, "Nope... I'm just gonna sit here and DUH! for now."