PCM/WAV and MPA in Audio CD

[meRobs]

I have been playing with LUK's latest beauty, version 2.4.1.0 and have tried out the create Audio CD feature.

It works well for most of my audio files: MP3, WMA and WAV.

 

However, WAV files from Adobe Premiere (video editor) are accepted and burn, but play garbled. This is possibly due to them being PCM WAV (16 bit and 48 kHz).

It would be nice if ImgBurn could be tweak to include such files??!!

 

Another file type used by video editors is MPA (MPEG 1 layer II, also 16 bit and 48 kHz).

Could this type also be included?

Thanks

[blutach]

Does DirectShow not decode these properly?

 

Regards

[LIGHTNING UK!]

What's the PCM/WAV that won't come out properly? Is the file extension actually PCM?

 

A file with the PCM file extension is written 'as-is' as I kinda assumed it would be 44kHz 16bit. Without the user manually entering the file format, I'm not even sure it's possible to know what the contents of a PCM file are.

 

I just decoded a 48kHz WAV file and that worked fine for me.

 

MPA will probably work if you actually try it - assuming DirectShow can interpret it of course.

[meRobs]

Does DirectShow not decode these properly?

 

I don't know what is doing the encoding.

Since these files play when opened in every other App on my PC, I assumed ImgBurn was not doing its bit.

In any case, ImgBurn does not list MPA as supported!

PCM-WAV & MPA play in Wnodow MediaPlayer, XnView, MegaView, GoldWave, etc.

 

I have a recent PC with Windows XP.

I had also installed K-Lite Codec and the Storm Codec packs.

So, would these be the problem??

Should I download DirectShow and add it??

 

Thanks

Robin

[LIGHTNING UK!]

ImgBurn has a fallback in the 'Create CD CUE File' window whereby any 'unknown' file that's

 

So either select 'all files' for the file type in the browse box or drag + drop your mpa files into the window.

 

I've added support for 'MPA' in the next version of ImgBurn so they'll show up automatically.

 

As for the PCM/WAV thing, you'll need to provide more info as I was unable to reproduce it earlier.

 

A good way to test things is to load the file in GraphEdit. ImgBurn basically works in the same way it does.

[meRobs]

So either select 'all files' for the file type in the browse box or drag + drop your mpa files into the window.

I've added support for 'MPA' in the next version of ImgBurn so they'll show up automatically.

As for the PCM/WAV thing, you'll need to provide more info as I was unable to reproduce it earlier.

A good way to test things is to load the file in GraphEdit. ImgBurn basically works in the same way it does.

 

I was just about to comment that MPA files are burnt to CD and play, but, they are not 'supported' -- I had to access them via 'All files'.

Good to hear that you have added them to the Supported list in the next version! Great -- many Apps don't handle MPA.

 

As for PCM/WAV: I have re-tested. Normal WAV (eg ripped by Nero) burn & play OK, yet those 'exported' by Adobe Premiere do not (play so distorted that the audio is not recognised).

 

My PCM/WAV files all have the WAV extension as added by Premiere.

 

I will have a look at GraphEdit, etc.

Thanks

[meRobs]

As for PCM/WAV: I have re-tested. Normal WAV (eg ripped by Nero) burn & play OK, yet those 'exported' by Adobe Premiere do not (play so distorted that the audio is not recognised).

 

My PCM/WAV files all have the WAV extension as added by Premiere.

 

I will have a look at GraphEdit, etc.

Thanks

I have had a look at GraphEdit. I could not find its EXE on my PC (searched), so, I downloaded it (not installed) and checked out the Windows site for DirectShow and GraphEdit.

It is not clear to me how best to use these facilities -- there is danger of upsetting the Codecs already onboard!

 

So, I guess I will live with the fact that I cannot add PCM/WAV files to an Audio CD and if I need audio stuff from Premiere I will export as MPA instead.

 

However, the bottom line for me is that other Apps (mentioned above) on my PC will play the PCM/WAV files !!?????

So my PC must have the necessary tools.

Thanks again.

Edited April 17, 2008 by meRobs

[LIGHTNING UK!]

GraphEdit is just an exe, it won't mess with anything.

 

Load it up and click 'File' -> 'Render Media File'.

 

Select your audio file and then see what happens. It'll either build the graph required to play it back or it won't and you'll get an error.

 

You STILL haven't told me anything about the PCM/WAV file! What's the file extension? How exactly is it coming out on the disc? Is it complete garbage or is it just not 100% clear?

 

Please remember that 'playing' a file is not the exact same thing as decoding it to a 44kHz 16bit PCM file - and that's what needs to happen when a file gets put on a CD-DA disc because that's the format of audio they use (and it's set in stone!).

[meRobs]

GraphEdit ... 'File' -> 'Render Media File'.

 

You STILL haven't told me anything about the PCM/WAV file! What's the file extension? How exactly is it coming out on the disc? Is it complete garbage or is it just not 100% clear?

As mentioned above the extension for the PCM/WAV files from Premiere is '.wav' as supplied by Adobe Premiere.

 

All 44.1 kHz WAV files play from the Audio CD made by ImgBurn (in WMPlayer). '

In Gspot their Codec is seen as 'PCM audio' & 'No Codec required'; and in GraphEdit they link through 'Wave Parser' to 'Default DirectSound Device'.

 

1 WAV file, at 48 kHz (unknown source) also plays correctly from this CD.

In Gspot its Codec is seen as '0x0007 (MULAW)' and 'Codec not installed'!!. In GraphEdit, it linked to 'Wave Parser', then 'ACM Wrapper' and to 'Default DirectSound Device'.

 

However, 3 WAV files I tried were exported from Adobe Premiere at 48 kHz (always at 48 kHz). When ImgBurn's audio CD plays in WMPlayer the audio is as loud as the original but so garbled it cannot be recognised!

In Gspot their Codec is seen as 'PCM audio' & 'No Codec required'; and in GraphEdit they link through 'Wave Parser' to 'Default DirectSound Device'.

 

So all looks OK in GraphEdit -- there being no errors issued!

Can you make sense of this??

Regards

Robin

Edited April 17, 2008 by meRobs

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Are you sure they're not 24bit wavs?

 

I can't imagine that one 48kHz WAV would decode properly and anothers wouldn't. There must be something different about them.

 

When you've got them loaded in GraphEdit, bring up the properties on the 'Default DirectSound Device' filter (right click -> properties) and get a screenshot of what each one says.

 

Can you provide a sample of one of the 48kHz ones that don't work?

[meRobs]

Are you sure they're not 24bit wavs?

When you've got them loaded in GraphEdit, bring up the properties on the 'Default DirectSound Device' filter (right click -> properties) and get a screenshot of what each one says.

 

Can you provide a sample of one of the 48kHz ones that don't work?

I have checked them all in XnView and in Premiere: they are all 16 bit!

The properties for the 'Default DirectSound Device' filter are the same for all the 48 kHz files, viz: 1 format tag, 2 channels, 48000 samples /s, 192000 Avg B/s, 4 Block Align and 0.00 rate!

This is no help.

 

The only difference I could find between the single 48 kHz file that played and the others that did not was as follows:

(1) Gspot gave its Codec as 0x0007 (MULAW) rather than PCM audio

(2) when opened in Premiere, it was indicated as 'compressed stereo' rather than just '16-bit stereo' and

(3) its file size was relatively low, only 93 kB/sec, which is half that for the files that would not play: at 186.8 kB/sec (normal, being 10.9% more than that for the 'good' 44.1 kHz files) .

 

I could send you a short file that doesn't work, maybe 22 sec (4 MB).

But how would I send it? To this forum or directly to you?

Thanks

Robin

Edited April 17, 2008 by meRobs

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Check in the About box (via the 'Help' menu) and you should find the email address.

 

Thanks

[jeff_nz]

I think you'll find those MULAW wav files are 8bit audio. If you hover your mouse over the file, Windows (also Gspot) will probably indicate the bitrate as 768kbps instead of 1536kbps for a 16bit 48000Hz wav file...

Edited April 17, 2008 by jeff_nz

[meRobs]

Check in the About box (via the 'Help' menu) and you should find the email address.

Thanks LUK.

I have just sent a 22 sec sample.

[meRobs]

I think you'll find those MULAW wav files are 8bit audio. ... the bitrate as 768kbps instead of 1536kbps for a 16bit 48000Hz wav file...

Yes, it makes sense that it is 8-bit!

 

In Gspot and Explorer it appears as 48 kHz and 768 kbps.

Its size is half what it should be: only 93.4 kB/sec and appears in Adobe Premiere as 'compressed stereo' rather than '16-bit stereo'!

 

So DirectShow can handle 48 kHz 8-bit correctly but not 16-bit!

 

In any case, this file is an oddity for me -- I am still concerned about the feeding of 16-bit 48 kHz WAV files to an Audio CD!

Robin

Edited April 18, 2008 by meRobs

[jeff_nz]

Sorry, I misread and somehow thought you meant that was the file giving you problems. Please ignore my previous post as being irrelevant.

[meRobs]

Sorry, I misread and somehow thought you meant that was the file giving you problems. Please ignore my previous post as being irrelevant.

But still useful! It helped to finalize the understanding for this 48 kHz file that didn't fit the pattern.

Thanks

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Just to confirm, the file you sent me DOES NOT play properly once decoded and put on CD yeah?

 

I just made a cue based on it and burnt the cue as I would do any other one... it burnt fine.

 

This is what I see in graphedit on my machine.

 

 

and this is the debug info from ImgBurn...

 

D 12:58:20 Start DirectShow Init...
D 12:58:20 File Name: C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Seeyablues 22sec.wav
D 12:58:20 Start Enum Graph Filters...
D 12:58:20 Filters: Source -> Wave Parser -> ACM Wrapper -> Sample Grabber -> Null Renderer
D 12:58:20 End Enum Graph Filters - Total: 5
D 12:58:20 End DirectShow Init
D 12:58:20 Start DirectShow CleanUp...
D 12:58:20 End DirectShow CleanUp
D 12:58:20 Start ACM Init...
D 12:58:20 File Name: C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Seeyablues 22sec.wav
D 12:58:20 End ACM Init
D 12:58:20 Start ACM CleanUp...
D 12:58:20 End ACM CleanUp...
D 12:58:20 Start DirectShow Init...
D 12:58:20 File Name: C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Seeyablues 22sec.wav
D 12:58:20 Start Enum Graph Filters...
D 12:58:20 Filters: Source -> Wave Parser -> ACM Wrapper -> Sample Grabber -> Null Renderer
D 12:58:20 End Enum Graph Filters - Total: 5
D 12:58:20 End DirectShow Init
D 12:58:20 Start DirectShow Decode...
D 12:58:20 File Name: C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Seeyablues 22sec.wav
D 12:58:20 WaitForCompletion Succeeded! - EventCode: 0x00000001
D 12:58:20 No More Data To Decode! (DirectShow)
D 12:58:20 Accurate Decoded Size: 3,865,396 bytes.
D 12:58:20 Accurate Decoded Sectors: 1,644
D 12:58:20 Accurate Decoded Time: 00:21:69 (MM:SS:FF)
D 12:58:20 End DirectShow Decode
D 12:58:20 Start DirectShow CleanUp...
D 12:58:20 End DirectShow CleanUp

 

In my current version (beta) of the app I can actually make it output the raw pcm file as it would be written to the disc during the 'Analysing Audio File...' stage.

 

I then chucked both the files into soundforge and they're pretty much identical (the scale is different on the bottom one and I couldn't get them to look exactly the same, sorry!)

 

 

[meRobs]

Just to confirm, the file you sent me DOES NOT play properly once decoded and put on CD yeah?

I just made a cue based on it and burnt the cue as I would do any other one... it burnt fine.

This is what I see in graphedit on my machine.

Yes, I confirm that this file burns to an Audio CD but plays garbled (hard to recognise) in Window Media Player.

 

In GraphEdit I get the same as you did and when the track is ripped to WAV from the CD it is 44.1 kHz as it should be (like your RAW) but also garbled.

 

In SoundForge their envelopes looks much the same, but, do they sound the same??

 

Are you saying all is well - that the RAW is 'identical' and therefore the CD track will sound the same - that you cannot reproduce the problem?

Or are you just asking for me to confirm (as in the quote)??

Thanks

Robin

Edited April 18, 2008 by meRobs

[LIGHTNING UK!]

The files shown in SoundForge sound identical (well, to my ears anyway ).

 

So yeah, I cannot reproduce the problem.

 

As ImgBurn lists that the ACM Wrapper filter is being used, it means some *.acm (Audio Codec Manager) file is being added to the mix (rather that just pure DirectShow filters).

 

Assuming your filters are the same as mine, I guess it can only be some difference in the ACM filters that we both have installed.

 

Can you get a screenshot / listing of what yours are?

 

You can use this tool - http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/installed_codec.html

 

Turn off the video/directshow ones in the options (or view?) menu.

[meRobs]

A further comment on the file 'Seeyablues 22sec.wav': it not only plays correctly on my PC (every App that plays audio), but, when burnt to an Audio CD using Nero 7 Essentials it played correctly in WMPlayer!

 

Yet, as mentioned above, it will not play from a CD made by ImgBurn!!

Robin

Edited April 19, 2008 by meRobs

[LIGHTNING UK!]

I'm sure I mentioned this before... playing is not the same as decoding to be put on a disc. You can play a 48kHz file as-is, you can't burn anything other than 44kHz.

 

PM me a good email to send you a beta version to and then you can examine the raw output in the same way I did.

 

What you have to understand is that ImgBurn is at the complete mercy of DirectShow. ImgBurn is just telling DS which file to process and then capturing the decoded bytes, there's no clever conversion code in ImgBurn or anything.

[meRobs]

I'm sure I mentioned this before... playing is not the same as decoding to be put on a disc.

Yes, I realise that playing an audio file and converting it to CDA are independent issues. I mentioned playing out of completeness - the main point was that Nero could make a successful audio CD from the above files but ImgBurn couldn't -- a small point.

 

Anyway, as you requested I emailed a screenshot of the audio Codecs from installedCodec. In case, they are of general interest, I present it here:

 

It seems that the above problem is mine alone, so, if you are too busy to help any more, I understand.

Indeed, I would prefer you to move on to issues of concern to others.

Thanks very much for your help so far.

Robin